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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8261648" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>And I was using scouts the entire time. So, I'm not sure why you think I've "suddenly changed" from one to the other. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Never claimed that they were effective managers. I was claiming that it was an effective tactic for fighting an enemy. That's it. </p><p></p><p>I've shown you can afford it, you just suddenly decided that the pricing wasn't good enough, based off nothing except that I should be "paying them more" even though I'm already paying triple the cost . </p><p></p><p>I don't play with experience, so I was never going to think of that angle, [USER=463]@S'mon[/USER] brought up experience and I agreed with them. If you are playing with experience, that is a factor. But, I don't assume that. And you didn't either. </p><p></p><p>And, you have not shown them losing any money at all. So, not sure how I'm losing twice what their pay and take is. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Also, this was originally a response to your "effective but not cost effective" which seems is a position you are abandoning now, since, as I point out, that just is flatly false. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, if players think up clever ways to outsmart you, you just go "AHA! I planned for that" and adjust the fight so that they get defeated anyways? Seems like that isn't anything you have ever advocated before, but I have no other way to interpret your response to "players are also intelligent" being "you get different tactics" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"In my opinion" </p><p></p><p>Forgot to add that part. Since it is a fairly common fantasy trope to have the mercenary company that loves to fight. But, there is nothing in the rules written that says you can't hire mercenaries to fight difficult battles. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never tried to hide that I was using 100% accuracy. I fully and openly admit it. That math is easier than trying to make up an AC and then try and match it. And, when you gave me an AC, I calculated it for you, so I didn't even force you to do your own math. </p><p></p><p>So, keep complaining that I took a route to make it easier on myself, openly admitted it, and have no qualms about doing it again. I don't care and I stand by my decision. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>6 gp is more than 2 gp. I've been doing the math with 6 gp this entire time. I stated when I changed it, and I never changed back. </p><p></p><p>30 is a very small number when you are considering kingdoms of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. Also, a few scouts are bounty hunters, that just means a percentage of their population. I might not be hiring bounty hunters, I might be hiring former army scouts. We never clarified. Nice attempt to obscure the facts with pointless semantic arguments though. </p><p></p><p>We hired them for a job, that job wasn't bounty hunting. I don't think it matters that the Bone Devil didn't break his parole. This is some really petty arguments. </p><p></p><p>Their title is scout yes, they are also very good at fighting and we hired them to fight. I don't see what this. has to do with anything. Are you trying to say you would allow your players to pay three times the cost of a group or mercenaries, explicitly hire those mercenaries to fight, allowing them to trek multiple days into the wilderness, and then have the mercenaries turn around and say "Our old job before this was just finding people, we found them, we aren't fighting for you because our imaginary job title isn't warrior?" Again. This is petty. </p><p></p><p>Hopefully I don't get a second turn, this sort of petty semantical stuff is just an annoying distraction. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting how you completely ignore the rest of that paragraph. Maybe you missed it? I'll repost it, </p><p></p><p>So, hiring someone with weapon skills is 2 gp a day. </p><p></p><p>According to you, hiring actual mercenaries is "more expensive" so I jumped it to 6 gp per day. </p><p></p><p>Then according to you, for no reason except CR, you decided that Scouts must be even more expensive. You won't say how much, so I asked if it should be 10 gp per day. That is the daily allowance of a minor lord. For a bounty hunter, must be an expensive bounty. I know there are some bounty hunters who can spend months tracking down a target, must be awesome to pay someone like that 300 gold a month (I averaged the number of days in the month to 30. If the month is shorter it will be less than 300, if the month is longer it will be more than 300. Also, we have been assuming a 7 day week, not all DnD worlds use a 7 day week, but I went with this assumption because it is easier and more familiar to people.) </p><p></p><p>But then... what about people who are hired by governments that are even HIGHER CR. A Thayan Warrior is CR 2, four times higher than the scout. Would they be getting 20 gp per day? </p><p></p><p>A Gladiator is a position, they are CR 5, double the warrior and TEN TIMES more than the scout. So, do they get paid 45 gp per day? A week as a gladiator at those prices is 315 gp, that is a month of living like the lords and ladies of a realm. </p><p></p><p>Also, you might want to redo your math on that 3rd level party. Five man band, (6*14 = 84), That is a 3rd level party being offered 420 gold for a single job. I don't know about you, but if I was part of a 3rd level party being offered over 400 gp, I'd be worried it was a scam or a trick. That is a lot of money for that level. (By the way, since you are always so concerned about my math. I chose a five man band because the average size of an adventuring party is between 4 and 6 people. Clearly if there are 4 people, it is less than 420 and if there are 6 or more people, it is more than 420. I could offer you every single variation, but I am strapped for time) </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, frankly, I'm curious how much you think these people are worth, and how the various employers they are supposed to have can afford to pay them. I mean, 20 gp per day for every CR 2 warrior in Thay has to be metric tons of gold. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you never disagreed with my point, you just wanted to argue that hiring soldiers is horribly expensive and ineffiecent, which is why we have to keep players poor (while still getting paid more than 500 gold per adventure by level 3 somehow) because if we don't they will make the absolutely ineffective and terrible decision to hire people to fight for them, even though that doesn't actually work....</p><p></p><p>Do you even understand your own position anymore, or is more a knee-jerk reaction to me posting something that you have to disagree with it? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And the players want to make that happen. So they will try and make that happen... see the conflict there? You are assuming the player's plans must fail, because there are just a lot of people involved and for some reason that means the players can't alter the situation to favor themselves. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well I wasn't going to argue every single possible permutation of every adventuring party combination with every single adventure hook and every single monster and every single grouping of monsters and every single terrain type and every single level of fog of war. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, despite how much I seem to be wasting on this. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Funny how I never claimed a wide open plain, you just assumed that. You make a lot of assumptions for someone who hates it when other people assume parts of your argument. </p><p></p><p>All I did was show the damage potential. That was it. You decided you just had to prove me wrong, because of reasons I guess, and are harping on every single petty detail you can think of to try and dismantle my point... while completely agreeing with my point and ignoring what my actual point is, by dragging me down in this endless morass of petty arguments over whether or not someone titled scout who was hired to fight would actually fight, because fighting is dangerous.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8261648, member: 6801228"] And I was using scouts the entire time. So, I'm not sure why you think I've "suddenly changed" from one to the other. Never claimed that they were effective managers. I was claiming that it was an effective tactic for fighting an enemy. That's it. I've shown you can afford it, you just suddenly decided that the pricing wasn't good enough, based off nothing except that I should be "paying them more" even though I'm already paying triple the cost . I don't play with experience, so I was never going to think of that angle, [USER=463]@S'mon[/USER] brought up experience and I agreed with them. If you are playing with experience, that is a factor. But, I don't assume that. And you didn't either. And, you have not shown them losing any money at all. So, not sure how I'm losing twice what their pay and take is. Also, this was originally a response to your "effective but not cost effective" which seems is a position you are abandoning now, since, as I point out, that just is flatly false. So, if players think up clever ways to outsmart you, you just go "AHA! I planned for that" and adjust the fight so that they get defeated anyways? Seems like that isn't anything you have ever advocated before, but I have no other way to interpret your response to "players are also intelligent" being "you get different tactics" "In my opinion" Forgot to add that part. Since it is a fairly common fantasy trope to have the mercenary company that loves to fight. But, there is nothing in the rules written that says you can't hire mercenaries to fight difficult battles. I never tried to hide that I was using 100% accuracy. I fully and openly admit it. That math is easier than trying to make up an AC and then try and match it. And, when you gave me an AC, I calculated it for you, so I didn't even force you to do your own math. So, keep complaining that I took a route to make it easier on myself, openly admitted it, and have no qualms about doing it again. I don't care and I stand by my decision. 6 gp is more than 2 gp. I've been doing the math with 6 gp this entire time. I stated when I changed it, and I never changed back. 30 is a very small number when you are considering kingdoms of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. Also, a few scouts are bounty hunters, that just means a percentage of their population. I might not be hiring bounty hunters, I might be hiring former army scouts. We never clarified. Nice attempt to obscure the facts with pointless semantic arguments though. We hired them for a job, that job wasn't bounty hunting. I don't think it matters that the Bone Devil didn't break his parole. This is some really petty arguments. Their title is scout yes, they are also very good at fighting and we hired them to fight. I don't see what this. has to do with anything. Are you trying to say you would allow your players to pay three times the cost of a group or mercenaries, explicitly hire those mercenaries to fight, allowing them to trek multiple days into the wilderness, and then have the mercenaries turn around and say "Our old job before this was just finding people, we found them, we aren't fighting for you because our imaginary job title isn't warrior?" Again. This is petty. Hopefully I don't get a second turn, this sort of petty semantical stuff is just an annoying distraction. Interesting how you completely ignore the rest of that paragraph. Maybe you missed it? I'll repost it, So, hiring someone with weapon skills is 2 gp a day. According to you, hiring actual mercenaries is "more expensive" so I jumped it to 6 gp per day. Then according to you, for no reason except CR, you decided that Scouts must be even more expensive. You won't say how much, so I asked if it should be 10 gp per day. That is the daily allowance of a minor lord. For a bounty hunter, must be an expensive bounty. I know there are some bounty hunters who can spend months tracking down a target, must be awesome to pay someone like that 300 gold a month (I averaged the number of days in the month to 30. If the month is shorter it will be less than 300, if the month is longer it will be more than 300. Also, we have been assuming a 7 day week, not all DnD worlds use a 7 day week, but I went with this assumption because it is easier and more familiar to people.) But then... what about people who are hired by governments that are even HIGHER CR. A Thayan Warrior is CR 2, four times higher than the scout. Would they be getting 20 gp per day? A Gladiator is a position, they are CR 5, double the warrior and TEN TIMES more than the scout. So, do they get paid 45 gp per day? A week as a gladiator at those prices is 315 gp, that is a month of living like the lords and ladies of a realm. Also, you might want to redo your math on that 3rd level party. Five man band, (6*14 = 84), That is a 3rd level party being offered 420 gold for a single job. I don't know about you, but if I was part of a 3rd level party being offered over 400 gp, I'd be worried it was a scam or a trick. That is a lot of money for that level. (By the way, since you are always so concerned about my math. I chose a five man band because the average size of an adventuring party is between 4 and 6 people. Clearly if there are 4 people, it is less than 420 and if there are 6 or more people, it is more than 420. I could offer you every single variation, but I am strapped for time) So, frankly, I'm curious how much you think these people are worth, and how the various employers they are supposed to have can afford to pay them. I mean, 20 gp per day for every CR 2 warrior in Thay has to be metric tons of gold. So, you never disagreed with my point, you just wanted to argue that hiring soldiers is horribly expensive and ineffiecent, which is why we have to keep players poor (while still getting paid more than 500 gold per adventure by level 3 somehow) because if we don't they will make the absolutely ineffective and terrible decision to hire people to fight for them, even though that doesn't actually work.... Do you even understand your own position anymore, or is more a knee-jerk reaction to me posting something that you have to disagree with it? And the players want to make that happen. So they will try and make that happen... see the conflict there? You are assuming the player's plans must fail, because there are just a lot of people involved and for some reason that means the players can't alter the situation to favor themselves. Well I wasn't going to argue every single possible permutation of every adventuring party combination with every single adventure hook and every single monster and every single grouping of monsters and every single terrain type and every single level of fog of war. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, despite how much I seem to be wasting on this. Funny how I never claimed a wide open plain, you just assumed that. You make a lot of assumptions for someone who hates it when other people assume parts of your argument. All I did was show the damage potential. That was it. You decided you just had to prove me wrong, because of reasons I guess, and are harping on every single petty detail you can think of to try and dismantle my point... while completely agreeing with my point and ignoring what my actual point is, by dragging me down in this endless morass of petty arguments over whether or not someone titled scout who was hired to fight would actually fight, because fighting is dangerous. [/QUOTE]
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