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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4954417" data-attributes="member: 51942">I realize this thread is focused on damage, but I really feel the need to support the notion that wraiths are horribly nasty.I'm playing in a party with six fourth level characters, and yesterday we faced six wraiths and two mad wraiths, which is a level+2 to level+3 encounter - our party is fairly competent and this level of encounter is typically a challenging but by no means overwhelming combat.Our DM initially forgot the wraith's +1d6 combat advantage bonus, and forgot their regeneration.  The combat started with our Avenger using his channel divinity anti-undead power, and he critted a Mad Wraith for something like 40 radiant damage - which didn't even bloody it (due to the insubstantial property).To cut a long story short, even without regen and the damage bonus, and with a truly lucky start to the combat, this combat had us hopelessly outclassed - it wasn't even remotely close.  Virtually every character was always weakened, meaning that effectively, the wraiths had around 5 times more hit points (weakened: factor 2, insubstatial: factor 2, for a total factor 4, with a significant loss due to rounding down.  A 10 damage attack would deal 2 damage to the wraith).Two mad wraiths means that most characters are constantly dazed and take 5 necrotic damage at the start of the turn.  This is really nasty.  Fortunately, we have quite a few radiant powers (radiant damage suppresses a mad wraith's aura), but even then two dazed characters need to hit both mad wraiths with such powers to suppress both auras - and of course, sometimes you miss, and sometimes you can only use a ranged power or a charge (no shift-attack due to dazed) - which provokes OA's with CA from all nearby normal wraiths, and you need to do this every round just to prevent ongoing 5 necrotic and daze for the entire party.  Nasty.For kicks, mad wraiths have a recharging domination-like attack; and characters hit by it move their speed to attack the nearest ally.  Because we weren't all bunched up (due to the aura's), such attacks often meant provoking 3 (sometimes more) OAs, so one hit by that recharge power commonly meant 5 attacks - the power itself, the OA's, and the forced attack on each other. To better be able to cover each others backs and avoid the worst of these friendly fire incidents, we finally regrouped in a corridor, leaving a fallen comrade behind, and tried to place our two most resilient characters to the front: one guy with resist 5 necrotic, and another with reflex 21 (which is what normal wraiths target).  Then, we discovered the next two killer features wraiths have (fortunately, by now the DM realized he'd underestimated wraiths, and hardly used these abilities).  You can't block wraiths; they're phasing, so they just fly through you or the walls to surround you and attack the weakest charactes.  This movement might even provoke OA's, were it not that (1) they can often use the walls, (2) PC's are often dazed, and (3) in the odd case that they want to move and might provoke, they can use their encounter power to shift 6 squares.  Needless to say, gaining any kind of tactical advantage against such opponents is very difficult.  Finally, as a cherry on top... that fallen comrade?  Well, that dude will rise as (yep) yet another wraith.  With a lot of DM help, "we" pulled through.  The DM played the wraiths as essentially mindless, not taking even obviously beneficial tactical moves.  Our 20 charisma paladin, with the power to mass mark, got the chance to mark all wraiths, and almost all of them continued hitting the nearest target, taking a bunch of radiant damage.  The wraiths bunched up in the hallway before us, right in front of our wizard, who put various area effects to good use.  Hints as to which wraith was weakened most were liberally given to help focused fire.  Wraiths, on the other hand, didn't focus their fire.To recap: - Effectively factor 4 more hitpoints than printed due to insubstatial and an at-will save-ends weakening power. - Obscenely high regeneration - regen 5, which effectively works out as something like regen 20 due to the weaken+insubstantial combo.  - a nasty auras which dazes and damages (mad wraiths) - a will-targetting attack which potentially causes heaps of OA's and friendly fire (and an at-will penalizing the Will defense) (mad wraiths) - phasing and an encounter shift power which (especially due to the common daze) means that it is very hard to deploy effective tactics and formations; a hurt wraith can easily maneuver to a safe spot and simply regenerate.  - any fallen friend rises as a new (mad) wraith - Extra damage with CA (which mad wraiths amply provide via their dazing aura)These things are way, way, way overpowered for their level.We've also had a needlefang swarm encounter @ level 1, but this one (so far) took the cake.  Needlefangs are really nasty - but killable.  (Mad) Wraiths are only somewhat nasty, but dazing, phasing, and very hard to kill.</blockquote>

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