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<blockquote data-quote="Caliban" data-source="post: 719683" data-attributes="member: 284">Then don't get so emotional about it.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It just seems that you are making a big deal out of something that is pretty minor. It's not a logical flaw, you just aren't looking at it the way they are. The ECL columon on table 2-2 is the Starting ECL, not the ECL.&nbsp;&nbsp; Its their effective character level when you start playing them.&nbsp;&nbsp; The standard ECL is equal to &quot;Monster HD&quot; + &quot;Level Adjustment&quot; + &quot;Class Levels&quot;.Table 2-2 isn't using the standard ECL, it's using Starting ECL, which doesn't take into account class levels. The 1 in the HD column simply reflects the 1HD every creature starts with.&nbsp; A 1 HD creature will either have it's &quot;monster class&quot; HD or a &quot;character class&quot; HD when it starts play.&nbsp;&nbsp; The standard 1HD humanoids from the MM, and the standard races, all start with their character class HD instead of the &quot;monster class&quot; HD. When the elf starts play, it will have 1HD from it's class, and a level of justment of +0, so it has a STARTING ECL of 1. A 1st level elf has a Effective Character Level of 1, just as table 2-2 shows.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's just that the &quot;monster HD&quot; is usually replaced by their &quot;class HD&quot; when they actually start play. This is supported by the sidebar on page 13, not contradicted by it as you stated.&nbsp;&nbsp; Read the very first line of the sidebar.&nbsp;&nbsp; And the last part of the sidebar, where it mentions keeping the &quot;monster HD&quot; also states that if you do this, you get the humanoid starting skill points, not the class level starting skill points.&nbsp; Table 2-2 assumes that you are going to be replacing the monster HD with the class level when you actually start play, which is why it lists the skill points &quot;as class&quot;. The option for keeping the &quot;monster HD&quot; is really only useful for monsters with fractional HD, like kobolds.&nbsp; They have a starting skillset that isn't based on a class.&nbsp;&nbsp; Full 1HD monsters are always assumed to have a character class of some sort in the core rules, so there's no starting skillset for &quot;non-classed 1HD humanoids&quot;. The core rules are still there, unmodified.&nbsp; This is just a different way of presenting them, along with an option for doing things differently.&nbsp; I do agree that their presentation seems counter-intuitive at first.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Caliban, post: 719683, member: 284"] Then don't get so emotional about it. :) It just seems that you are making a big deal out of something that is pretty minor. [b][/b] It's not a logical flaw, you just aren't looking at it the way they are. The ECL columon on table 2-2 is the [b]Starting ECL[/b], not the ECL. Its their effective character level when you start playing them. The standard ECL is equal to "Monster HD" + "Level Adjustment" + "Class Levels". Table 2-2 isn't using the standard ECL, it's using [b]Starting ECL[/b], which doesn't take into account class levels. The 1 in the HD column simply reflects the 1HD every creature starts with. A 1 HD creature will either have it's "monster class" HD or a "character class" HD when it starts play. The standard 1HD humanoids from the MM, and the standard races, all start with their character class HD instead of the "monster class" HD. When the elf starts play, it will have 1HD from it's class, and a level of justment of +0, so it has a [b]STARTING[/b] ECL of 1. A 1st level elf has a Effective Character Level of 1, just as table 2-2 shows. It's just that the "monster HD" is usually replaced by their "class HD" when they actually start play. This is supported by the sidebar on page 13, not contradicted by it as you stated. Read the very first line of the sidebar. And the last part of the sidebar, where it mentions keeping the "monster HD" also states that if you do this, you get the humanoid starting skill points, not the class level starting skill points. Table 2-2 assumes that you are going to be replacing the monster HD with the class level when you actually start play, which is why it lists the skill points "as class". The option for keeping the "monster HD" is really only useful for monsters with fractional HD, like kobolds. They have a starting skillset that isn't based on a class. Full 1HD monsters are always assumed to have a character class of some sort in the core rules, so there's no starting skillset for "non-classed 1HD humanoids". [b][/B] The core rules are still there, unmodified. This is just a different way of presenting them, along with an option for doing things differently. I do agree that their presentation seems counter-intuitive at first. [/QUOTE]

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