Savage species and levels equivalent to hit dice

[Roman]

According to the Savage Species book, monstrous hit dice are equivalent to levels and a level adjustment is than added on top of this to take into account special abilities. IMO, hit dice should not be equivalent to levels. First of all, not all hit dice are equal. For example, dragon hit dice are better than humanoid hit dice. Second, even the best hit dice (such as dragon ones) are not worth an entire level - one must consider that fact that levels grant both hit dice and special abilities - for example a barbarian gains the same 12 sided hit dice as a dragon, but the levels also give him/her rage and a host of other abilities. So, how do you deal with this issue?

 

[hong]

Think of the level adjustment as a fudge factor. You can fix anything with a fudge factor. Well, almost anything.

 

[d4]

i tend to agree, especially with humanoid and monstrous humanoid. a "level" of humanoid is closer to a level in an NPC class like Warrior or Expert than a full-fledged PC class.

maybe treat them the same way? i.e., count them as worth Hit Dice -1 levels?

 

[Spatula]

According to the Savage Species book, monstrous hit dice are equivalent to levels and a level adjustment is than added on top of this to take into account special abilities. IMO, hit dice should not be equivalent to levels. First of all, not all hit dice are equal. For example, dragon hit dice are better than humanoid hit dice. Second, even the best hit dice (such as dragon ones) are not worth an entire level - one must consider that fact that levels grant both hit dice and special abilities - for example a barbarian gains the same 12 sided hit dice as a dragon, but the levels also give him/her rage and a host of other abilities.

Savage Species already deals with this. That's the whole purpose of the 'acid tests' - you compare the monster in its totality, with class levels and the proposed level adjustment, against a regular classed humanoid. If the monster is better, increase the level adjustment and try again. Since you're comparing the complete package, the definiciencies of monster HD are taken into account.

And, monstrous HD are equivalent to class levels when it comes to things like max skill ranks, feat & ability gains, etc.

 

[Roman]

Savage Species already deals with this. That's the whole purpose of the 'acid tests' - you compare the monster in its totality, with class levels and the proposed level adjustment, against a regular classed humanoid. If the monster is better, increase the level adjustment and try again. Since you're comparing the complete package, the definiciencies of monster HD are taken into account.

I suppose - but it is a very arbitrary way of doing it - much better to have a standardised "humanoid hit dice equal 1/2 level, draconic hit dice equal 0.75 level, etc." method of doing things.

And, monstrous HD are equivalent to class levels when it comes to things like max skill ranks, feat & ability gains, etc.

Yes, but as I said levels also include special abilities on top of those things.

 

[Greywarden]

Not all Class Hit Dice are equal either... a Barbarian has a way better Hit Die than a Wizard, but both classes have their special abilities.

 

[Felon]

You are correct, Roman. There is a lot that's off-kilter with the current level adjustment system. Level adjustments, for one thing, are fairly arbitrary. Let's say a monster has 10 hit dice and among other things he can cast mind blank as a spell-like ability at will. According the "acid test" method mentioned above, how early can they allow that monster to playable as a PC?

If you aske me, probably never, or at least not until epic levels. But the braxat from MMII has that very ability, and according to the 3.5e update PDF it has an LA of +7. The logic there is probably that because mind blank is an 8th-level spell, the monster shouldn't get the ability before a wizard does. Never mind that a braxat, tough though it may be, is no other respect the equal of a 17th-level player character. Of course, it's the "at will" factor that screws the pooch. If monsters are supposed to be playable as PC's, then there has to be some of the same design concepts involved. Ability uses can't just be alloted in 1/day, 3/day, and "at will" increments.

 

[James McMurray]

And on top of that, not all humanoid, dragon, or outsider hit dice are equal. A Red Dragon gets a lot more for his hit dice than a white dragon does in terms of special abilities. The Level adjustment usually.

 

[Roman]

Good points Felon - have you found any method to deal with the hit dice part of the problem?

And on top of that, not all humanoid, dragon, or outsider hit dice are equal. A Red Dragon gets a lot more for his hit dice than a white dragon does in terms of special abilities. The Level adjustment usually.

Yes, but the special abilities are represented by the LA, not by hit dice levels.

 

[James McMurray]

That's where the acid test comes in. You figure out what the race would be worth because of its special abilities, and then you compare it to an equally levelled PC. The parts of the LA that get dropped to even the two out can be considered the abilities gained from the "racial class." The remainder of LA pays for abilities that would make the class unbalanced if it was given straight up.

For example, look at the progression for the Annis Hag (pg 153). 7 Hit Dice, Level Adjustment +5. Its class progression gets abilties at every level, even those levels where racial hit dice are gained. When you reach 12th level in the class, you're a full Annis Hag, and a fairly close equivilent to a 12th level fighter, barbarian, or other warrior class.