D&D 5E save or boring

[Ralif Redhammer]

Glad to be of service. I’ve dealt with some similar issues in the past, and have worked hard on figuring out possible solutions. To answer your question, I think the spells themselves are fine. I heard a recent quote that comes to mind, for some reason “There’s no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.” I think it goes back to knowing your PCs, their abilities, and their strategies.

Sleep is problematic under the right circumstances. Bane can really skew a battle if you can't disrupt that concentration. A PC that can fly and snipe from afar is a problem if none of the enemies have ranged attacks.

So maybe there are some elves in the enemy lines that can’t be put to sleep. Or the ceiling caves in, possibly disrupting the spell. Or the big bad has a potion of flying.

But the other thing is, not every battle should be a tough challenge. Sometimes, it’s okay for the PCs to get a fun win using their abilities and/or by being smart.

This is definitely the best advice on my specific issues, thank you!

But can people who are trying to help fix my problems at least confirm that they think the spells are fine as-is? Just so I understand your perspective. Thanks again, all!

 

[dmnqwk]

I had hoped this thread would be more about people's experiences with mid-level save-or-stuck spells. But can people who are trying to help fix my problems at least confirm that they think the spells are fine as-is? Just so I understand your perspective. Thanks again, all!

How high are the player's spell DCs? I mean you listed Hypnotic Pattern as a troublesome spell and it's just 3rd level, ended if they take damage. Incapacitated doesn't end their ability to defend themselves it basically means "The monsters can be dealt with 1 by 1" At which point you have the first one targeted freeing every other one and it's no worse than a fireball suddenly.

I think it falls onto you in determining how you want to counter these sorts of spells, and how much you want to reward players for creative thinking. You can also have player's ambushed so they cant get this spell off before the enemies are in range and they'd have to risk incapacitating their own team (similar to fireball, sometimes all the mobs swarm in between your own team and getting the spells off becomes problematic.)

Ultimately you as a DM can shut down anything after the first time you see it, and it's completely fair because if you think how to shut it down surely the enemies are entitled to as well (maybe not Ogres, but more intelligent foes!) Without "save or die" mechanics I think a lot of spells have been reigned in for power level, and creative spellcasting should be able to control a battlefield... until they run out of magic from overusing their spells (and that's where forcing them to use magic outside of combat, or allowing them the opportunity to make non-combat situations easier by expending spell slots, comes into play).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Just to be clear: the players aren't a problem, the phones aren't a problem, and being stuck for long periods of time doesn't come up much because I don't put a lot of those monsters in front of them. But I would like to explore that option more, and I was wondering if other people had experienced something similar and how they dealt with it. What I'm hearing is, "you have problems specific to your table" - which is fine, and maybe that's all there is. But can people who are trying to help fix my problems at least confirm that they think the spells are fine as-is? Just so I understand your perspective. Thanks again, all!

I think the spells are fine as-is, IMXP. If they aren't working fine at your table, though, that's probably more important than what I think.

 

[Raith5]

The only spell that produces sighs at our (low to mid level) table is Sleep. Because it is a low level spell it comes out a fair bit and it is seen to be a bit overpowered by our group because it dramatically alters most encounters. It seems to be more powerful than Hold Person because at least that spell allows a save. While I wish Sleep followed some consistent saving throw routine (rather than hp totals), combats are fast in 5e so the problem is not a game breaker by any stretch.