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<blockquote data-quote="dmnqwk" data-source="post: 6763397" data-attributes="member: 6804204">How high are the player's spell DCs? I mean you listed Hypnotic Pattern as a troublesome spell and it's just 3rd level, ended if they take damage. Incapacitated doesn't end their ability to defend themselves it basically means &quot;The monsters can be dealt with 1 by 1&quot; At which point you have the first one targeted freeing every other one and it's no worse than a fireball suddenly.I think it falls onto you in determining how you want to counter these sorts of spells, and how much you want to reward players for creative thinking. You can also have player's ambushed so they cant get this spell off before the enemies are in range and they'd have to risk incapacitating their own team (similar to fireball, sometimes all the mobs swarm in between your own team and getting the spells off becomes problematic.)Ultimately you as a DM can shut down anything after the first time you see it, and it's completely fair because if you think how to shut it down surely the enemies are entitled to as well (maybe not Ogres, but more intelligent foes!) Without &quot;save or die&quot; mechanics I think a lot of spells have been reigned in for power level, and creative spellcasting should be able to control a battlefield... until they run out of magic from overusing their spells (and that's where forcing them to use magic outside of combat, or allowing them the opportunity to make non-combat situations easier by expending spell slots, comes into play).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dmnqwk, post: 6763397, member: 6804204"] How high are the player's spell DCs? I mean you listed Hypnotic Pattern as a troublesome spell and it's just 3rd level, ended if they take damage. Incapacitated doesn't end their ability to defend themselves it basically means "The monsters can be dealt with 1 by 1" At which point you have the first one targeted freeing every other one and it's no worse than a fireball suddenly. I think it falls onto you in determining how you want to counter these sorts of spells, and how much you want to reward players for creative thinking. You can also have player's ambushed so they cant get this spell off before the enemies are in range and they'd have to risk incapacitating their own team (similar to fireball, sometimes all the mobs swarm in between your own team and getting the spells off becomes problematic.) Ultimately you as a DM can shut down anything after the first time you see it, and it's completely fair because if you think how to shut it down surely the enemies are entitled to as well (maybe not Ogres, but more intelligent foes!) Without "save or die" mechanics I think a lot of spells have been reigned in for power level, and creative spellcasting should be able to control a battlefield... until they run out of magic from overusing their spells (and that's where forcing them to use magic outside of combat, or allowing them the opportunity to make non-combat situations easier by expending spell slots, comes into play). [/QUOTE]

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