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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 941468" data-attributes="member: 957">Nope.Caster level is not significant.Of course the save is usually good enough.&nbsp; You have completely missed the point.You had already stated:So it was you talking about how the fighter SHOULD be afraid.&nbsp; PLUS this entire arguement is over the mechanics of the spell for when the target DOES fail.&nbsp; So anything you say about chances of making the save adds nothing.Yes, you missed something.&nbsp; You used the rather ambiguous term &quot;useful&quot;.&nbsp; Of course your L1 spells will be &quot;useful&quot; at L25.But level fo the SPELL has a ton to do with level of the enemy.&nbsp; When you are tenth level level your magic missles do not take out CR10 monsters the way they took out CR1 monsters at level 1.&nbsp; Does your L1 spell still do the same thing? Yes.&nbsp; Is your level 1 spell still &quot;useful&quot;?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Does the level of the enemy have anythign to do with the level of the spell?&nbsp; Hell Yes!&nbsp; You are not going to waste round tossing MM at a CR10 monster.&nbsp; Please step in here and explain if I am wrong.&nbsp; So do you still claim that level of the spell doesn't have anything to do with the level of the monster?A spell that is the big bang for a L1 wizard drops to a back-up reserve or dust off spell for weaklings when that wizard hits L10.The EXACT same thing happens to the spells that a L11 wizard uses when that wizard becomes L20 (or 25).&nbsp; The spell still works.&nbsp; It is still &quot;useful&quot;.&nbsp; But it (if it is designed well) becomes a back-up reserve or dust off spell for weaklings.&nbsp; Explain to me why a L6 spell should be any more potent vs a CR20 monster than a L1 spell should be against a CR10?Look at the spell progression tables.&nbsp; You may notice that you have the same number (within a very small range) of your highest level spells throughout L1 to L20.&nbsp; It is not a bug, its a feature.Now you use the term &quot;useless&quot;.&nbsp; If you think that because a magic misslecan not take out a CR10 monster it is now &quot;useless&quot;, then I can't help you.How many different flaws in this analogy do you want me to list?The sword the fighter had a L10 probably IS a lot less effective than the sword he uses now.A sword is a piece of equipment.&nbsp; A spell is a class abilities.&nbsp; The BAB, feats and HP that the fighter gains from levels 10 to 25 are what make him better.A fighter gains itterative attacks that play a VERY big role in effectiveness.Your &quot;why&quot; has already be answered above.&nbsp; Please show me where I am wrong without reosrting to comparing apples and popes.Of course not.&nbsp; I never said that.&nbsp; What I DO say is that you Level 5 and 6 spells should be LESS effective against the L25 fighter than they are against the L10 fighter.&nbsp; You keep trying to describe a gradual and relative change in terms of absolutes (to you, a spell is &quot;useful&quot; or &quot;useless&quot;).&nbsp; That poerspective is severly flawed and, again, shows the weakness of the underlying argument.No, that is not it.&nbsp; You whole &quot;only 10 ... do anything&quot; reasoning is the flaw in your whole position.&nbsp; A Level 25 fighter should not fear a L6 spell NEARLY AS MUCH as a L10 fighter.&nbsp; (Just as a L25 wizard should not fear being attacked by a L10 fighter nearly as much as a L10 wizard would)If the terms &quot;do anything&quot; and &quot;forget&quot; are part of your arguement.&nbsp; Then you are WAY WAY off.Duh,&nbsp; It was YOUR analogy.&nbsp; I agree it is awful.&nbsp; That WAS the point.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 941468, member: 957"] Nope. Caster level is not significant. Of course the save is usually good enough. You have completely missed the point. You had already stated: So it was [b]you[/b] talking about how the fighter SHOULD be afraid. [b]PLUS[/b] this entire arguement is over the mechanics of the spell for when the target DOES fail. So anything you say about chances of making the save adds nothing. Yes, you missed something. You used the rather ambiguous term "useful". Of course your L1 spells will be "useful" at L25. But level fo the SPELL has a ton to do with level of the enemy. When you are tenth level level your magic missles do not take out CR10 monsters the way they took out CR1 monsters at level 1. Does your L1 spell still do the same thing? Yes. Is your level 1 spell still "useful"? Yes. Does the level of the enemy have anythign to do with the level of the spell? Hell Yes! You are not going to waste round tossing MM at a CR10 monster. Please step in here and explain if I am wrong. So do you still claim that level of the spell doesn't have anything to do with the level of the monster? A spell that is the big bang for a L1 wizard drops to a back-up reserve or dust off spell for weaklings when that wizard hits L10. The EXACT same thing happens to the spells that a L11 wizard uses when that wizard becomes L20 (or 25). The spell still works. It is still "useful". But it (if it is designed well) becomes a back-up reserve or dust off spell for weaklings. Explain to me why a L6 spell should be any more potent vs a CR20 monster than a L1 spell should be against a CR10? Look at the spell progression tables. You may notice that you have the same number (within a very small range) of your highest level spells throughout L1 to L20. It is not a bug, its a feature. Now you use the term "useless". If you think that because a magic misslecan not take out a CR10 monster it is now "useless", then I can't help you. How many different flaws in this analogy do you want me to list? The sword the fighter had a L10 probably IS a lot less effective than the sword he uses now. A sword is a piece of equipment. A spell is a class abilities. The BAB, feats and HP that the fighter gains from levels 10 to 25 are what make him better. A fighter gains itterative attacks that play a VERY big role in effectiveness. Your "why" has already be answered above. Please show me where I am wrong without reosrting to comparing apples and popes. Of course not. I never said that. What I DO say is that you Level 5 and 6 spells should be LESS effective against the L25 fighter than they are against the L10 fighter. You keep trying to describe a gradual and relative change in terms of absolutes (to you, a spell is "useful" or "useless"). That poerspective is severly flawed and, again, shows the weakness of the underlying argument. No, that is not it. You whole "only 10 ... do anything" reasoning is the flaw in your whole position. A Level 25 fighter should not fear a L6 spell NEARLY AS MUCH as a L10 fighter. (Just as a L25 wizard should not fear being attacked by a L10 fighter nearly as much as a L10 wizard would) If the terms "do anything" and "forget" are part of your arguement. Then you are WAY WAY off. Duh, It was YOUR analogy. I agree it is awful. That WAS the point. [/QUOTE]

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