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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 943391" data-attributes="member: 1363">Interestinly enough, several of the arguements have glossed over a very simple statistical concern.&nbsp; A spell that can kill a creature with a probability of 50% or greater, that has 250 or greater hit points, is unparrelled at any level of arcane spellcasting (from a damage comparisons sake).&nbsp; I agree that WOTC's handling was poor, and I'm disappointed that I'll have to immediately &quot;reinstate&quot; my 3rd Edition house rule on save or die...but so be it.&nbsp; Here's the statistical arguement, which I think can be reasoned, for save or die:1) direct damage spells should deal more damage on average than area damage spells.2) some statistical comparisons of existing spells from the PH indicate this should be roughly 133% of comparable damage from AoE.&nbsp; 3) A save or die spell shouldn't be capable of dealing more than a &quot;comparable&quot; spell of it's level.&nbsp; Take 133% of the Maximum Damage by spell level for AoE spells, and you've roughly got your &quot;hp caps&quot; for save or die.&nbsp; If someone's current hp are that or higher the spell shouldn't insta-kill them on a failed save.&nbsp; 4) Most save or die spells have a reduced (worse than half damage) effect if a save is successful.5) Therefore, if a target is above the current hp cap, and fails its save, the spell should still do a &quot;significant&quot; amount of damage.&nbsp; For example it may do 2x what an AOE damage spell of that level would deal (average damage = approximately the maximum for an AoE spell for that level.&nbsp; This logic matches EXACTLY with a 40d6 Disintegrate.&nbsp; The math takes care of itself on the &quot;HP CAP&quot; when the spell will average 120 hp damage (the cap should otherwise be around 100hp).&nbsp; Dealing only 5d6 damage on a successful saving throw, to only a single target.&nbsp; They've bypassed the cap element, which is a more &quot;fair&quot; mechanic, and should have been applied to all of the insta-kill spells.&nbsp; The biggest disadvanatage with this method...rolling all those dice!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 943391, member: 1363"] Interestinly enough, several of the arguements have glossed over a very simple statistical concern. A spell that can kill a creature with a probability of 50% or greater, that has 250 or greater hit points, is unparrelled at any level of arcane spellcasting (from a damage comparisons sake). I agree that WOTC's handling was poor, and I'm disappointed that I'll have to immediately "reinstate" my 3rd Edition house rule on save or die...but so be it. Here's the statistical arguement, which I think can be reasoned, for save or die: 1) direct damage spells should deal more damage on average than area damage spells. 2) some statistical comparisons of existing spells from the PH indicate this should be roughly 133% of comparable damage from AoE. 3) A save or die spell shouldn't be capable of dealing more than a "comparable" spell of it's level. Take 133% of the Maximum Damage by spell level for AoE spells, and you've roughly got your "hp caps" for save or die. If someone's current hp are that or higher the spell shouldn't insta-kill them on a failed save. 4) Most save or die spells have a reduced (worse than half damage) effect if a save is successful. 5) Therefore, if a target is above the current hp cap, and fails its save, the spell should still do a "significant" amount of damage. For example it may do 2x what an AOE damage spell of that level would deal (average damage = approximately the maximum for an AoE spell for that level. This logic matches EXACTLY with a 40d6 Disintegrate. The math takes care of itself on the "HP CAP" when the spell will average 120 hp damage (the cap should otherwise be around 100hp). Dealing only 5d6 damage on a successful saving throw, to only a single target. They've bypassed the cap element, which is a more "fair" mechanic, and should have been applied to all of the insta-kill spells. The biggest disadvanatage with this method...rolling all those dice! [/QUOTE]

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