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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dykstrav" data-source="post: 5273514" data-attributes="member: 40522">I'm of mixed attitudes regarding "save-or-die" effects.As a DM, I'm sort of lukewarm about them. Using a save-or-die monster like a medusa doesn't necessarily indicate that you're a bad DM--adventuring is a dangerous business. If any farmboy that grabs a longsword and a suit of armor can shrug off the petrifying gaze of a medusa, I think that reduces the coolness factor of the PCs. If the player characters are never in incredible danger, their exploits are correspondingly less exceptional. It's sort of like Achilles addressing the messenger boy in the opening scenes of the 2004 movie Troy... The boy says, "I wouldn't want to fight him," to which Achilles replies, "That's why no one will remember your name." As both a player and a DM, anything that ratchets up the tension of the game is usually a good thing.I don't think that how 4E handles the issue by requiring multiple checks over successive rounds is necessarily any better than how previous editions handled it. I haven't heard a player claim that they've had more fun when their character dies from failing three checks instead of dying from failing one check.As a player, I feel that most save-or-die effects are insanely useful. Even at low levels, spells such as sleep and color spray can turn the tide of a battle. Disintegrate can be extremely handy, many players forget that you can disintegrate matter as well as monsters. Are you facing a 54-HD iron golem marching across a bridge? Not if you have disintegrate--all the spell resistance and/or damage reduction in the world doesn't help you if the bridge beneath your feet disappears and you have no means of flying.All that being said, I have my own theories as to why some players despise save-or-die effects. I've noticed that players high-five each other and cheer when they drop a high-CR monster with a disintegrate or finger of death, but act like the DM is lacking in skill or is deliberately being a jerk when monsters use save-or-dies. Some players only like something when it benefits their character, and protest loudly and vehemently when bad things happen to their characters (often citing personal issues with the DM or "balance" issues with the game). I'm not saying that everyone who dislikes save-or-dies is like this... But enough are that it no longer surprises me when I see it at a table.The other side of the coin rests solely upon bad DMs. Unfortunately, there are also many rotten apples out there who either like to bring personal issues into the game (singling out one character for all the monsters to attack, using only fire-resistant monsters when the wizard just got access to fireball, et cetera) that killing characters has become associated with these personality types. DMs can always "win" against a party of characters when they decide to get smarmy with a group, and save-or-die effects are a convenient way for bad DMs like this to murder characters with impunity and claim a flimsy pretense of impartiality.</blockquote>

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