Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 5274082" data-attributes="member: 59506">I'll do my best.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  I don't assume that Heroes are successful all the time.  I'll use Star Wars as an example again.  They go from defeat to defeat until finally, through perseverence, they defeat the Evil Empire.  They fail far more than they succeed.  But, if those points of failure had been Save-or-Die moments, they're never going to last long enough to persevere and finally win. So, in the context of Save-or-Dies and those saying their exclusion is wrong, my question would be: Why does Death seem to be the only form of failure that matters? I see many other possible results besides death...and most of them not independantly considered a "success".  There are tons of bad things that can happen to Heroes besides simple death.  To me, death is boring.  Death is common and mundane...and too much like the real world.  In my games, my players know there are many, many fates worse than death.  Sometimes, I think they might actually appreciate a simple death rather than some of the tribulations I put them through.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  But I also know that's just momentary...in the end they enjoy what they endured and survived in order to get to the prize.  (Or at least that's what they tell me.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />)  But you can be sure, they do not feel that I coddled them by not using Save-or-Die effects.  Removing them does not mean one has turned their Dungeon into a padded romper room! (As some in this thread have portrayed it.<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />) I am not trying to say that Save-or-Dies are wrong.  If that's the trigger that delivers a thrill for other DM's, player's, and games, then by all means it's the absolutely right thing to be using.  I and my group however, do not get a thrill from Save-or-Dies.  And my posts explain why.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  I agree!  My question is: How does a meaningless, random death highlight a heroic attitude or a sense of self-sacrifice?  Self-sacrifice is throwing yourself in front of the Medusa's gaze in order to save your friend...not walking around a corner and coming face to face with a Medusa, and simply dying... (No drama, no tension, no chance...for me, no fun.)  Yup.  Agreed 100% again.  I wonder though, do you see Heroism in dying from the Orc's first swing, simply due to the randomness of the dice?  Where's the fight?  Where's the "holding the line"?  For me "You Shall Not Pass!", and the fight that follows, I find Heroic.  "You Shall Not...(ahhh...gurgle...gurgle...thump)" - not so much.  I don't agree.  He may have more resources and better odds, but the threat of death is still there.  He doesn't know if they have friends, or an entire army, waiting in the woods.  He doesn't know that they don't have some magic capable of defeating him.  Success is not guaranteed.  And, just because his decision is more automatic, doesn't make it any less significant.  How is someone who does the right thing...the Heroic thing...as a matter of course, considered less Heroic than the one that considers whether or not to do the right thing before doing it?<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></blockquote>

Verification