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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Freakohollik" data-source="post: 5277554" data-attributes="member: 43938">This is really the heart of the matter. There is definitely not enough guidance in the DMG/MM to advise when it is okay to use a SoD. You say having a monster pop out of the ground with no warning fire off a save or die because the rules said so is not bad DMing? If I had to cite an example of bad DMing, that would probably be the first thing I'd say. There are plenty of bad adventure modules that do this with a group of inexplicable bodaks on a wandering encounter table or something similar.I like SoDs, but they are often not used well and there are plenty of reasons they can get out of hand.First, a bit of 1e history that led to an abundance of SoDs.- Many 1e modules were tournament modules and were made intentionally very difficult. The authors would often put save or dies in there to punish mistakes. This is fine for a tournament module, but usually too harsh for standard play. But then it started showing up in adventures and modules written for standard play.- In 1e, often the idea of "clearing" a dungeon would be foolish. The dungeon was too dangerous a place for that. You need to get in, get the big treasure in the last room, and get out. There would be save or dies, and that's why you needed to visit as few rooms as possible. The notion of visiting few rooms went away, but the SoDs did not.- 1e saves were easy at high levels. As SoDs become more common, your saves get better. So they're less deadly. In contrast, 3e saves are built upon a 50% mechanic. That's deadly.Those things set the table for SoD mistakes. Then 3e came along and made some mistakes too.- First and foremost is CR. The idea that some number can tell you if it's okay to throw a monster at PCs is flawed. It is NOT okay to drop a surprise bodak on a party regardless of CR.- Because of all abundance of SoD, preparation and protection became huge in 3e. They were there in 1e as well, but not to this extent. Someone upthread strongly disliked the idea of requiring so much magical protection. Well that's the nature of of high level 3e. With so much powerful magic around, you'd be ignoring the way the game world works if you didn't have such protections. I'm not saying it was right, I'm saying that's the way it was. But, this is never explained in any 3e book I've read. It's something you just have to figure out.It really all comes down to this: SoDs exist to punish PCs for mistakes. If you're not willing to kill them for a given mistake, don't attach a SoD to it.</blockquote>

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