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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5311265" data-attributes="member: 61155">Fair enough. I've given my evidence and quotes from the rules that prove my point. If you're willing to let my rebuttals stand without any counter response, I'm willing to let this tangent (save or) die.   Here is one that comes to mind for me. A few years back, my friends was running an adventure in Ptolus. We were nearing the end of it, and were launching an attack on some evil guy's lair. Coming in through a side entrance, we ran into a guardian golem made out of tombstones. It wasn't intended to be a major challenge of any sort. But it landed a hit on a friend's character, and we discovered it had a Save or Die effect. Again, it was low CR compared to us, the CR was a trivial DC 14.  And my friend rolled a 1.  Years later, we still laugh about it. (And, well, largely did so at the time as well, since friendly mockery is how that group operates). But at the time, it also felt pretty obnoxious - we couldn't go back to get him raised without the bad guy completing his evil ritual (or whatever he was up to). So we trekked on without him, which meant he got to sit there through the rest of the session planning out his next character (since, at level 16 or so, cranking out a new character isn't all that simple.)  And the next week he came in with his new guy and we moved on, and all was well. But still. One ability, on a creature designed to be a speedbump, and one unlucky roll, meant he had to sit out the session. Which sorta reinforces my main feelings about Save or Die - if they have to exist, they should at least be special. Something the epic villain or mythic creature, maybe. But random encounters across the board, dozens of spells of varying levels...? That's what I could do without.</blockquote>

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