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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 353848" data-attributes="member: 2486">Characters get killed.&nbsp; At low-levels, you don't even need to fluff the roll: a single greataxe crit can kill you, with no input.&nbsp; Save-or-die merely keeps the casualty rates up to those of low-levels, not make them more deadly (and at the kind of level save-or-dies appear, you have access to Raise Dead or equivalent, so it isn't necessarily losing a character).&nbsp;Funnily enough, he didn't.&nbsp;Perhaps your players don't have sufficient defenses.&nbsp; Death Ward short-circuits most instakills as is available at a relatively lower level.&nbsp; 'Pseudo-instakills', such as polymorph and hold, can be removed with Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic or similar.&nbsp; And at high levels, raising the dead becomes a viable option.&nbsp; If you're killed at level 1, roll up a new character.&nbsp; If you're killed at level 10, wait for the party cleric to restore you to life.As for 'climaticism', see tsunami.&nbsp; Drama comes from description, not mechanics.&nbsp; A fight can be equally anticlimactic if you have a poor DM even if hit-point damage is used alone.&nbsp;Perhaps a fair point.&nbsp; I'll concede this one, but then it's swings-and-roundabouts.&nbsp; The wizards will often be upstaged by fighters if different combats agains particular foes (with draconic SR and saves, dragons are usually pretty hard to take down with instakill).&nbsp; As for the Dramatic Opponent Template, I can't see the use.&nbsp; For one, it puts the players on the back foot (unless you give all of them this template as well).&nbsp; Sure, it adds to the tension, but like fudging (which I will sometimes admit to doing) it pre-empts the whole point of save-or-dies.&nbsp; You don't blow save-or-dies on the minions, but save them for the BBEG.&nbsp; If he's immune to them, what's the point?Similarly, staggered reduction doesn't help save-or-die.&nbsp; The point is that you kill people there and then: if you stagger damage, they have a chance to get back through healing magic.&nbsp; Raise Dead et al. does not have a realistic casting time for combat due to this very reason.Spellcasters are meant to be powerful.&nbsp; At the low-levels, they are usually playing second fiddle to the fighters.&nbsp; High-levels are getting what they've been due.&nbsp; It may be a structural imbalance, but I regard save-or-dies are adding to the tension, making combat dangerous (which it should be) and giving spellcasters a decent chance when competing with the high-level fighting types.&nbsp; Dramatic Opponents, staggered death and simply deleting save-or-die may sound good on paper, but at the end of the day I can see combat becoming much more lame and turning into a hit-point bashing fest.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Al, post: 353848, member: 2486"] Characters get killed. At low-levels, you don't even need to fluff the roll: a single greataxe crit can kill you, with no input. Save-or-die merely keeps the casualty rates up to those of low-levels, not make them more deadly (and at the kind of level save-or-dies appear, you have access to Raise Dead or equivalent, so it isn't necessarily losing a character). Funnily enough, he didn't. Perhaps your players don't have sufficient defenses. Death Ward short-circuits most instakills as is available at a relatively lower level. 'Pseudo-instakills', such as polymorph and hold, can be removed with Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic or similar. And at high levels, raising the dead becomes a viable option. If you're killed at level 1, roll up a new character. If you're killed at level 10, wait for the party cleric to restore you to life. As for 'climaticism', see tsunami. Drama comes from description, not mechanics. A fight can be equally anticlimactic if you have a poor DM even if hit-point damage is used alone. Perhaps a fair point. I'll concede this one, but then it's swings-and-roundabouts. The wizards will often be upstaged by fighters if different combats agains particular foes (with draconic SR and saves, dragons are usually pretty hard to take down with instakill). As for the Dramatic Opponent Template, I can't see the use. For one, it puts the players on the back foot (unless you give all of them this template as well). Sure, it adds to the tension, but like fudging (which I will sometimes admit to doing) it pre-empts the whole point of save-or-dies. You don't blow save-or-dies on the minions, but save them for the BBEG. If he's immune to them, what's the point? Similarly, staggered reduction doesn't help save-or-die. The point is that you kill people there and then: if you stagger damage, they have a chance to get back through healing magic. Raise Dead et al. does not have a realistic casting time for combat due to this very reason. Spellcasters are meant to be powerful. At the low-levels, they are usually playing second fiddle to the fighters. High-levels are getting what they've been due. It may be a structural imbalance, but I regard save-or-dies are adding to the tension, making combat dangerous (which it should be) and giving spellcasters a decent chance when competing with the high-level fighting types. Dramatic Opponents, staggered death and simply deleting save-or-die may sound good on paper, but at the end of the day I can see combat becoming much more lame and turning into a hit-point bashing fest. [/QUOTE]

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