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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 354148" data-attributes="member: 2486">Well, the fact is that the won't.&nbsp; The point of 'save or dies' is that they are designed for big bad villains.&nbsp; Against, the lowly minions, you are much better off simply using the blast spells.&nbsp; Comparing a Finger of Death against an Empowered Cone of Cold or Prismatic Spray, against lots of minions you are probably better off with the latter two; against the big boss you'll want the former.&nbsp;Well, this is far skewed towards the immune side of things.&nbsp; Exhausted can be easily removed with magic and its effects are only slightly more than a nuisance to many bosses (to an arcane spellcaster, it is of little impact at all).&nbsp; Dead cannot be easily removed with magic (in a battle) and tends to have a more decisive effect.&nbsp;Defensive spells work a treat.&nbsp; The climax to my campaign, level 20 all round, save-or-die as staple fare, lasted well over a dozen rounds.&nbsp; Antimagic Shells, Death Wards, Mind Blanks, etc. all work well against save-or-dies or pseudo-save-or-dies.&nbsp; &nbsp;Perhaps.&nbsp; But then movie makers don't have to worry about the 'game' balance.&nbsp; They don't worry about the good guys getting slaughtered, and they can 'fudge' both dice as much as they want.&nbsp; Basing game rules off a film is often a bad idea.The irony is that this doesn't solve the problem either.&nbsp; Sure, you can ban save-or-die.&nbsp; But a Power Critical from a mercurial greatsword is going to save your evil wizard in two equal halves.&nbsp; A Rapid Shot from your Order of Bow Initiate will have a similar effect; as will a few daggers in the back from the invisible rogue.&nbsp; If you need to address this issue, you need to tone down the whole deadliness of combat, and herein lies the problem.&nbsp; Filmmakers can have the mugs die and the BBEGs hold out: game designers are hard-pushed.&nbsp; If you make the PCs less effective, they are less effective across the board, and simply 'cheating' to boost the boss doesn't seem fair or right.&nbsp; I learnt some time ago that whilst films often allowed for good inspiration, they should not be used as ideals.&nbsp; PS&nbsp;(I couldn't agree more.&nbsp; Why do we spend ages preparing dramatic speeches and the PCs come out with asinine comments like 'Eat me!', 'Die!' and 'Roll initiative, punk'?)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Al, post: 354148, member: 2486"] Well, the fact is that the won't. The point of 'save or dies' is that they are designed for big bad villains. Against, the lowly minions, you are much better off simply using the blast spells. Comparing a Finger of Death against an Empowered Cone of Cold or Prismatic Spray, against lots of minions you are probably better off with the latter two; against the big boss you'll want the former. Well, this is far skewed towards the immune side of things. Exhausted can be easily removed with magic and its effects are only slightly more than a nuisance to many bosses (to an arcane spellcaster, it is of little impact at all). Dead cannot be easily removed with magic (in a battle) and tends to have a more decisive effect. Defensive spells work a treat. The climax to my campaign, level 20 all round, save-or-die as staple fare, lasted well over a dozen rounds. Antimagic Shells, Death Wards, Mind Blanks, etc. all work well against save-or-dies or pseudo-save-or-dies. Perhaps. But then movie makers don't have to worry about the 'game' balance. They don't worry about the good guys getting slaughtered, and they can 'fudge' both dice as much as they want. Basing game rules off a film is often a bad idea. The irony is that this doesn't solve the problem either. Sure, you can ban save-or-die. But a Power Critical from a mercurial greatsword is going to save your evil wizard in two equal halves. A Rapid Shot from your Order of Bow Initiate will have a similar effect; as will a few daggers in the back from the invisible rogue. If you need to address this issue, you need to tone down the whole deadliness of combat, and herein lies the problem. Filmmakers can have the mugs die and the BBEGs hold out: game designers are hard-pushed. If you make the PCs less effective, they are less effective across the board, and simply 'cheating' to boost the boss doesn't seem fair or right. I learnt some time ago that whilst films often allowed for good inspiration, they should not be used as ideals. PS (I couldn't agree more. Why do we spend ages preparing dramatic speeches and the PCs come out with asinine comments like 'Eat me!', 'Die!' and 'Roll initiative, punk'?) [/QUOTE]

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