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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dykstrav" data-source="post: 5921305" data-attributes="member: 40522">I realize that not everyone is going to share my experiences in this  regard or my opinions, and that's fine. We want different things out of  the game.One of the things that I rarely see addressed is that most of the people that don't like save-or-die effects in previous editions don't have the same complaints about it in the PC's hands. A medusa turning someone into stone with a single failed save is wrong, but a first-level PC sorcerer with sleep or color spray is fine and dandy? A wizard with disintegrate is awesome, but a beholder with a disintegrate eye ray is messed up? Nah, that pig won't fly. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.I like save-or-die effects, both as a player and as a GM. In my mind, the characters should be legendary adventurers because they survived an encounter with a terrifying monster... Not survive the encounter because they're adventurers. Maybe it's a subtle distinction, but I enjoy a challenge and I fully expect some PC casualties every few sessions. I don't want the rules set to inherently provide my character with insulation from terrible things. Adventuring is dangerous. You wallow in gold and fame because you took the big risks, you survived when lesser people perish. If you don't want to risk a horrible death, maybe you're not cut out for adventuring. Most people in the world are farmers and craftsmen precisely because they don't want to have their intestines ripped out by an owlbear.All that being said... It's my experience that many people's problems with save-or-die aren't really with the concept itself, but with ass-hat GMs that used save-or-dies to screw the PCs. A bad GM will find a way to screw you over, regardless of what the rules say. If they can't do it within the context of the rules, they'll resort to "rule zero" or something similar. The multiple saves thing feels like we're all being asked to wear kid gloves because some jerk GM in Hoboken used an encounter with thirty medusas to screw his PCs. "This is why we can't have nice things."For my part, I'm glad that save-or-die effects are in.</blockquote>

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