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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 6468009" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Well, in my opinion, it can be a lot of fun either way.Long Duration SoD/SoSWhile I think saves that take away a creature's will (death, domination, etc.) should be penalized in some way, it can still be fun to play it out. And, if you pull out a win or reversal (my players have used Miracle at high levels to reverse a death last round to a SoD... but that was a long time ago in 3.5), that can be very rewarding. (The combat where one PC died and had it reversed, which was against a pissed off Balor, was very memorable and fun for the players.)On the other hand, it may not be so much fun to get owned. At one point in my 3.5 game, the PCs tried to assassinate an enchantress (extremely low magic world as of this point; magic was just blossoming again, and there was probably only about ten people with magic on the continent). They messed up the assassination, and she dominated three of them (including both opposing spellcasters), had one dominated spellcaster permanent blind a fourth (Blindness/Deafness), and then had one of the spellcasters Teleport them back to their home base. Once there, she Charmed the last PC (who had stayed behind). It was basically a TPK but worse, in a way. Everyone was alive, but dominated or charmed (or permanently blinded and left alone in the middle of the wilderness). They were eventually saved (they did know that the enchantress was being pursued by someone before they attacked her), but still, the next session wasn't a ton of fun for them.Short Duration SoD/SoSAs for short duration effects, my 4e PCs recently got involved in a fight with a vampire that could dominate (save ends) against the PCs at will. While he never got more than two of them at once (the Knight and the Scout), he did keep the Knight basically incapacitated most of the fight (well, he WAS attacking his friends). That wasn't a ton of fun for the Knight, but it felt good when he finally broke free long enough to get a hit in. Overall, the players had fun with the fight, even if the Knight was mostly left out. (My turn? He's telling me to charge the Elementalist. Okay. I attack. Hit. 17 damage. I roll my save. Fail. Next.)On the other hand, overcoming such effects have felt rewarding to them afterwards. They'd previously battled a bunch of cultists who were assisted by a gauth beholder. It used its sleep ray often (slowed SE, then unconscious SE), and it had the defender out of combat for about three rounds (one where he couldn't reach anyone, then two asleep; in the fourth round he only made it to anyone because he could charge after spending his move action to stand). Again, this wasn't great fun for him during the fight, but they still had fun when they finally got to beat on it (the Wizard PC using Hypnotism at the time to lower it into position). I still remember the Knight's player grin at that point.SummaryGive me both, depending on how fun it'll be when everything's all rolled out. To do this, we'll need divination magic, but I'm willing to brainstorm, if anyone has any ideas...</blockquote>

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