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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7835033" data-attributes="member: 42582">[USER=996]@Tony Vargas[/USER], I don't understand what you are trying to do with your posts.This is a thread about &quot;saving the bard&quot; - where what is meant is not the D&amp;D bard, let alone the 5e D&amp;D bard, but rather the bard archetype. It has been pointed out that the bard archetype predates D&amp;D and is not dependent on D&amp;D. Over the course of this thread I have pointed to various characters in well-known fictional works who exemplify the archetype, and also to some RPG examples, and talked about their suitability as PCs rather than NPCs. Some of the RPG examples have been magicians (eg the Rolemaster one I described upthread) but not all (eg the Prince Valiant one I described upthread).Bilbo Baggins is a character who is a suitable model for a PC, who goes on an adventurer, and who exemplifies the bard archetype (tricky, lives by his wits, very personable and at times even charming, likes to tell stroies). The fact that D&amp;D decided to create a halfling thief build instead which has none of Bilbo's trickery or charm as part of it; and the fact that D&amp;D makes all bards magicians - is irrelevant to the point I am making.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7835033, member: 42582"] [USER=996]@Tony Vargas[/USER], I don't understand what you are trying to do with your posts. This is a thread about "saving the bard" - where what is meant is not [I]the D&D bard[/I], let alone [I]the 5e D&D bard[/I], but rather the bard archetype. It has been pointed out that the bard archetype predates D&D and is not dependent on D&D. Over the course of this thread I have pointed to various characters in well-known fictional works who exemplify the archetype, and also to some RPG examples, and talked about their suitability as PCs rather than NPCs. Some of the RPG examples have been magicians (eg the Rolemaster one I described upthread) but not all (eg the Prince Valiant one I described upthread). Bilbo Baggins is a character who is a suitable model for a PC, who goes on an adventurer, and who exemplifies the bard archetype (tricky, lives by his wits, very personable and at times even charming, likes to tell stroies). The fact that D&D decided to create a halfling thief build instead which has none of Bilbo's trickery or charm as part of it; and the fact that D&D makes all bards magicians - is irrelevant to the point I am making. [/QUOTE]

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