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<blockquote data-quote="fluffybunbunkittens" data-source="post: 9462661" data-attributes="member: 7037492">There's very few spells with Str saves (like, Entangle is the most encountered).There are no weapon masteries that call for Str saves.Monsters seem to no longer let you Str save to resist being knocked over / pushed back.Most monsters do not grapple, they just apply the Grappled condition if their regular attack hits.That leaves NPCs who choose to grapple as the sole prospect for Str saves to reliably apply to.So it's down to whether your GM is someone who has NPCs grapple, and whether it's worth considering a save worthwhile when it only delays getting grappled, it cannot prevent it (you'd need external aids like Paladin aura + Bless, at which point you're pretty well off anyway).Con's always been good, no arguments against that. But Str is just straight-up weaker because its main role (keeping you standing) was taken away, and that's going to make a lot of beefy character concepts embarrassed (especially Reckless Attacking Barbarians, because the only thing that matters for staying up is not getting hit).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="fluffybunbunkittens, post: 9462661, member: 7037492"] There's [I]very[/I] few spells with Str saves (like, Entangle is the most encountered). There are no weapon masteries that call for Str saves. Monsters seem to no longer let you Str save to resist being knocked over / pushed back. Most monsters do [I]not[/I] grapple, they just apply the Grappled condition if their regular attack hits. That leaves NPCs who choose to grapple as the sole prospect for Str saves to reliably apply to. So it's down to whether your GM is someone who has NPCs grapple, and whether it's worth considering a save worthwhile when it only delays getting grappled, it cannot prevent it (you'd need external aids like Paladin aura + Bless, at which point you're pretty well off anyway). Con's always been good, no arguments against that. But Str is just straight-up weaker because its main role (keeping you standing) was taken away, and that's going to make a lot of beefy character concepts embarrassed (especially Reckless Attacking Barbarians, because the only thing that matters for staying up is not getting hit). [/QUOTE]

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