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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8728109" data-attributes="member: 67338">So in the heat metal thread I got to looking at saves... and so I want to make this a spin off.  Why do we get worse and worse at resisting effects as we level?here is from that what I said:in 2e (when I started) <a href="https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/PHB_Ch9_The_Saving_Throw" target="_blank">PHB Ch9 The Saving Throw</a> each class got BETTER at resisting spells but in 5e most classes get worse.lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0over all my saves improved by 5, 4, 1,1 ,1 and 1now that caster only gets 2 increases... but that can bring them to a 20... lets not give them any magic ups though dc 8+5+4 DC 17 (now that is a good save DC) only 1 save kept pace and the other 5 ALL FELL BEHIND...so your example of fireball not only needs to be prof but also a stat you are keeping up with the caster to not fall behind.even prof, with a 13 becoming a 14 and a magic +1 lags 1pt behind between 1st and 11th level.lets look at 1st-11th level fighters in 2e they start needing to roll above<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>14</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>17</td><td>17</td></tr></table>now at 11th level need<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>7</td><td>9</td><td>8</td><td>8</td><td>10</td></tr></table>an improvment of 7 7 7 9 and 7even if the wizard gets something (I know there were magic items but I think there were non weapon profs in the dragon mag) that applied a negative they would need it to apply a penalty of 6+ pts and I don't think that was possible,so lets think how this can work?  I don't know...even my own ideas don't keep up(my idea is to give both stat increase AND feats like 3e, and give everyone a +1 to all stats at level 11, and give half prof to all non prof saves/skills)even still that only brings the saves up a small amout 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 becomes 20 16 15 14 11 9 and prof of 4... non prof 2 (still giving +1 magic) +10 +7  +6  +5  +3 +2 is still only an increase of  +5 +4 +3 +4 +4 +3 against teh DC increasing by 5 and only the best stat and prof keep up</blockquote>

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