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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 148862" data-attributes="member: 2486">Firstly, just a mathematical error: d4/level implies average of 2-3 characters of your level, not 3-4.Your substantive point is that Sleep is tantamount to death.&nbsp; Whilst it is certainly dangerous and potentially lethal, it is fairly straightforward for an ally of the sleeper to simply wake him.&nbsp; Furthermore, it ought be borne in mind that coup de grace is a full-round action drawing attacks of opportunity: so not an instant despatch.&nbsp; With regard to save or die effects, think Chained (metamagic) Hold Person (5th level for clerics).&nbsp; It can affect up to 1 opponent/level (ergo 9 at minimum level) and effectively DOES mean death.&nbsp; Paralysis for nine rounds vis-a-vis sleeping for probably less than one (assuming that your allies wake you) more than makes up for the lower DCs.&nbsp; Empowered Fireball can also spell death for many characters of equal level: if you're a 9d4 HD mage, you don't want a 9d6x1.5 Empowered Fireball aimed at you.&nbsp; Finally, save or dies begin from fourth level: both Phantasmal Killer and (effectively) Polymorph Other.&nbsp; By 5th level, they come hard and fast: Slay Living and Flesh to Stone (effectively).Granted, the idea is to knock out many lower level foes.&nbsp; This I can accept.With reference to Suggestion, fair enough.&nbsp; But the 5th level clerical spell Greater Command CAN force people to go to sleep: lasting 1 round/level and affecting 1 enemy/level.&nbsp; Surely your proposed spell pales in comparison?&nbsp; And of course it can affect enemies of no matter what HD: assuming enemies of equal HD, this has a useful lifespan of two levels.&nbsp; True Sleep has no useful lifespan.The 'fix' is hardly a fix.&nbsp; 4HD creatures are toast against 9th level casters anyway, and they are hardly likely to fighting such creatures at their level.It's a tricky one though.&nbsp; It seems too weak at 5th, but a bit strong at 4th.&nbsp; Perhaps upping the number of creatures affected and the max HD affected could be a better fix (d6/level, up to 12HD?)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Al, post: 148862, member: 2486"] Firstly, just a mathematical error: d4/level implies average of 2-3 characters of your level, not 3-4. Your substantive point is that Sleep is tantamount to death. Whilst it is certainly dangerous and potentially lethal, it is fairly straightforward for an ally of the sleeper to simply wake him. Furthermore, it ought be borne in mind that coup de grace is a full-round action drawing attacks of opportunity: so not an instant despatch. With regard to save or die effects, think Chained (metamagic) Hold Person (5th level for clerics). It can affect up to 1 opponent/level (ergo 9 at minimum level) and effectively DOES mean death. Paralysis for nine rounds vis-a-vis sleeping for probably less than one (assuming that your allies wake you) more than makes up for the lower DCs. Empowered Fireball can also spell death for many characters of equal level: if you're a 9d4 HD mage, you don't want a 9d6x1.5 Empowered Fireball aimed at you. Finally, save or dies begin from fourth level: both Phantasmal Killer and (effectively) Polymorph Other. By 5th level, they come hard and fast: Slay Living and Flesh to Stone (effectively). Granted, the idea is to knock out many lower level foes. This I can accept. With reference to Suggestion, fair enough. But the 5th level clerical spell Greater Command CAN force people to go to sleep: lasting 1 round/level and affecting 1 enemy/level. Surely your proposed spell pales in comparison? And of course it can affect enemies of no matter what HD: assuming enemies of equal HD, this has a useful lifespan of two levels. True Sleep has no useful lifespan. The 'fix' is hardly a fix. 4HD creatures are toast against 9th level casters anyway, and they are hardly likely to fighting such creatures at their level. It's a tricky one though. It seems too weak at 5th, but a bit strong at 4th. Perhaps upping the number of creatures affected and the max HD affected could be a better fix (d6/level, up to 12HD?) [/QUOTE]

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