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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5860515" data-attributes="member: 22779">What spells don't scale with caster level at all?&nbsp; For it to not scale at all, the range would have to be fixed, with is extremely rare for any spell as would the duration, which, again, is very rare.A spell that lasts for several encounters due to extended duration is a spell that is that many times more effective than the same spell that only lasts one encounter.&nbsp; Which means that at higher levels, the lower levels spells grow in efficacy with every level, even though their base effects don't change.Going back to Mage Armor.&nbsp; At 1st level, it lasts 1 hour, and likely only 1, maybe 2 encounters (presuming we're not back to 15 minute adventuring days).&nbsp; So, you get a +4 AC for one fight out of the 4-6 you should be having that day.&nbsp; Decent effect that doesn't shift balance too much.&nbsp; But, at 11th level, that same spell now works in every encounter, for the same cost as when you cast it at 1st level.&nbsp; Again, this is inherent to the D&amp;D magic system.&nbsp; Virtually all spells do this.&nbsp; Once you pass about 7th level, your 1st and 2nd level spell slots will almost all contain long duration utilities, leaving your higher level slots for the big whammy stuff.And this is where the problem lies.&nbsp; The non-casters can never do this.&nbsp; A fighter's sword does the same damage regardless of what level he is.&nbsp; Sure, he can add damage to the sword - typically through magic buffs, magic weapons and feats.&nbsp; But, the weapon itself never changes.&nbsp; The casters, OTOH, get to have their weapons actually grow with them, plus they get many more weapons on top.Look, I can understand loving the Vancian system.&nbsp; I get that.&nbsp; But, this is a failing of the system.&nbsp; Not an insurmountable one, to be sure.&nbsp; Yes, you could strip away the scaling on lower level effects.&nbsp; Durations become fixed, ranges become fixed, etc.&nbsp; And that would likely go a very, very long way towards reining in casters.&nbsp; You can no long simply drop single slots on day long effects - if you want the day long effect, you have to pay for it with multiple slots.But, as it stands, the D&amp;D system of magic doesn't do that.&nbsp; I've never been discussing how to fix the system.&nbsp; I've been trying to nail down what the problem is first.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5860515, member: 22779"] What spells don't scale with caster level at all? For it to not scale at all, the range would have to be fixed, with is extremely rare for any spell as would the duration, which, again, is very rare. A spell that lasts for several encounters due to extended duration is a spell that is that many times more effective than the same spell that only lasts one encounter. Which means that at higher levels, the lower levels spells grow in efficacy with every level, even though their base effects don't change. Going back to Mage Armor. At 1st level, it lasts 1 hour, and likely only 1, maybe 2 encounters (presuming we're not back to 15 minute adventuring days). So, you get a +4 AC for one fight out of the 4-6 you should be having that day. Decent effect that doesn't shift balance too much. But, at 11th level, that same spell now works in every encounter, for the same cost as when you cast it at 1st level. Again, this is inherent to the D&D magic system. Virtually all spells do this. Once you pass about 7th level, your 1st and 2nd level spell slots will almost all contain long duration utilities, leaving your higher level slots for the big whammy stuff. And this is where the problem lies. The non-casters can never do this. A fighter's sword does the same damage regardless of what level he is. Sure, he can add damage to the sword - typically through magic buffs, magic weapons and feats. But, the weapon itself never changes. The casters, OTOH, get to have their weapons actually grow with them, plus they get many more weapons on top. Look, I can understand loving the Vancian system. I get that. But, this is a failing of the system. Not an insurmountable one, to be sure. Yes, you could strip away the scaling on lower level effects. Durations become fixed, ranges become fixed, etc. And that would likely go a very, very long way towards reining in casters. You can no long simply drop single slots on day long effects - if you want the day long effect, you have to pay for it with multiple slots. But, as it stands, the D&D system of magic doesn't do that. I've never been discussing how to fix the system. I've been trying to nail down what the problem is first. [/QUOTE]

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