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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 3760289" data-attributes="member: 1003">Yeah, yeah, I hear ya' .... but I think you're over-dumbing the idea of class roles.  They're there for the advanced players as well as the newbs.  Have you seen the threads about 'all Fighter' campaigns, or whatever?  You can still play that in 4e.  The Class Roles just make it easier to conceptualize what you're going to be missing, and therefor help you plan ahead and compensate.Yeah, I do the same.  However, the Class Roles may help me pick the class that best fits my conception.Yes, I agree. I was being sarcastic to suggest you were over-reacting in your characterization of the 4e wizard.  I should have been more clear.Wouldn't it be nice if the class was more accessible to new players?So, "hardcore roleplayers" are into memorizing hundreds of obscure and randomly assigned spell effects?  Anyone who isn't willing to take up this un-necessary challenge doesn't qualify?Look, I'm not going to belabor this point to much, but I will say one thing: chess.  I can explain to someone the basic rules to chess in about 30 seconds, and they'll have those rules memorized in 10 minutes.  Go is even easier to learn the basics of.Do you think that either of these games are easy to master? Or that there's no such thing as a "hard core" chess player?  Obviously it is hard, and there are hard core players.  Complexity must not be confused with depth.So is making a perfectly safe car. That doesn't make air bags a bad investment.I would argue the opposite.  Many things are needlessly complex because they were designed by idiots.Deserve??  Do you mean to say that players who choose to play wizards are more deserving than those who do not?  That doesn't fly with me.  Not at all.Yeah, but is that a failure of the spell mechanics, or the combat options?Uh, no.  What we're saying is that "It's ok for the fighter to cleave through 200 hp worth on monsters in a round, and for wizards to be equally helpful in fighting baddies. What's not OK is the fighter getting his magic armor & sword sundered, and then standing around while the wizard wins the adventure for him."  We're bringing the classes into parity.  That means everyone else at the table gets to shine (not just you, the wizard guy).  If you can't handle your buddies actually being good at something ...You know what's complex and book-keeping intensive?  The US Federal Tax Code.  You know what the Tax Code isn't?  Fun.Unnecessary complexity /= fun.  The fun part of being a wizard lies elsewhere.  I'm pretty sure it'll still be fun in 4e.</blockquote>

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