Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6123065" data-attributes="member: 85870">And I have zero, zip, nada, no problem with this. And I think, looking back, that I now have a clearer picture of the types of experiences that would have led you to feel that way, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]. There's a lot of GMs who, either not knowing any better, or knowing better and doing it anyway, throw out scenes to the party simply because it's A) what they have prepared, B) falls in line with their intended "story," and C) it's "too hard" to change plans on the fly if the players aren't interested. If a player complains, the GM cobbles together some half-baked, lame reason that the scene "totally applies to the party, you HAVE to go do THIS!" In some cases, it's a result of GM malice and jerk-itude. In some cases it's less insidious, it's just that the GM is bad at improvisation and "winging it."I think the issue, as you've raised it, is more an effect of GMs that don't involve players in setting up "the fiction," framing scenes, and creating thematic material. I'd have a very hard time with a GM that wasn't actively asking questions about what the group wanted, the types of scenes they wanted to engage, the kinds of experiences they wanted to have both in- and out-of-character. As a player it would be a sign of disrespect to my time and energy. It also makes sense why 4e seems to meet a lot of your needs, since the combat balance, connection of role to theme, and loose-drift narrativism all point to a play experience where the GM is less worried about having to "manage the game," but is more free to "manage the overall experience" happening at the table. This is partially one of the reasons I've sort of cut loose from the group I've been playing with the last two years, and formed my own. I liked all the players individually, but after finishing GM-ing our 8-month Pathfinder campaign, the next GM switched to GURPS. At first I thought I just didn't like the mechanics, but I realized that was only partially true, and not nearly as much a factor in my dissatisfaction as I led myself to believe. The problem was that the story, the plotlines, the NPCs, the setting, were good and well planned, but they weren't involving my agenda at all. It wasn't horrible by any stretch, and if it had been my only gaming option I would have stuck with it, but it wasn't really compelling either. I was playing, but I had not "bought in."In a perfect world, the need to "skip a scene" would never come up. The GM and players would be in sync, the GM would be actively looking to "hook" the players with the themes and material they've presented, and the players would have the sense and amicability to provide the GM with good hooks to use--character development, background, and other "setting" and "plot" material. In the example to start the thread, I mentioned that Player 1 basically asked to skip ahead to the dig, but it in no way was a demand. It wasn't a, "I'm not doing anything other than addressing the dig site, and any attempts to take me elsewhere will be met with opposition and 'shirtyness.'" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> But I think a smart GM would pay attention to the clues leading up to that moment and divert it. "Hmmm, Player 1, sounds like you're having problems with the current courses of action on the table. What's happening? What are you looking for?" Get an answer, then take a 15-minute pit stop break and let the GM sort it out. If I as a GM had information planned in the scene that was crucial to future progress, I'd either figure out a way to integrate it into a new, more player-engaged scene, or I'd say, "Listen, I know you're anxious to keep moving forward with X. But I want to let you know that there's several things here that I think will be relevant to your goals, once you understand them. Let me set up this scene for you, and see what you think. If you're REALLY not interested in it, then we'll ask the group to see if they'd like to move on as well." Then if what's presented doesn't seem to warrant player buy-in, the group decides to move on. That takes a lot of maturity from both GM and players to get to that point, though. The GM has to not be hurt, or insulted, or whatever, that his players didn't want to engage with his or her carefully crafted "scene in the desert." I think, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], your ultimate point is that a GM who is unwilling to take that approach is probably not going to be effective over the long-term, and I think I agree with you.</blockquote>

Verification