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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1565693" data-attributes="member: 994">Right, and for me that line is crossed as soon as he who is hidden touches his target. Another sense besides Vision is now involved and therefore the Hide/Spot rules are no longer the sole determining factor in the outcome. Under the RAW if Grok the orc was instead Loopy the Werewolf the SD would be screwed even before the Grapple attempt. Why? Because another sense, Scent this time, enters the equation.Exactly. Please go through all of my posts in this thread. I tried very hard to make sure I used phrases like "IMC", "As the DM I would", etc. If I missed it once or twice leading you to believe I think the rulings I have proposed are the absolutely only way to rule in this situation I apologize, but I think the RAW are ambiguous, as you just reiterated, and therefore have tried to come to a conclusion that sits well with me. You, apparently, have found a different interpretation for your/our game, which I'll remember if we ever come up against an opponent with HiPS (as I can't see any of the PCs acquiring the ability in this campaign).Allowing a Full Attack action from Hiding while requiring an opposed check with each attack seems balanced to me to try it this way for initial playtesting. Realize that because of the Cover/Concealment requirements for Hiding this is only going to happen with SDs or others with a HiPS-like ability. I don't think SDs are so powerful that this is out of line, nor do I think it unfairly penalizes the SD's target (while a single opposed check to represent the SD's entire Full Attack would, IMO).Why the designers or why me? For the former I can't answer, but for me because there are clear rules for Sniping that trying it is a Move Action. I think it's perfectly reasonable to extrapolate that a Move Action is therefore required after a Melee Attack (negating a Full Attack action while hiding); I just don't know if it's fair/balanced/fun to do so and until I've had a chance to formally judge for myself I tend to read things on the Options side rather than the Restrictions side. I know Your Mileage DOES Vary! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'd like to see a SD in play for a bit using the HiPS ability, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon in my game or yours, so this is something to be filed away for the future. I do enjoy debates like this, though, because it forces me to really take a good look at different sections of the rules hopefully giving me a better grasp of the system as a whole.Common Sense. But if you want to get more pedantic about it the Hide rules DO cover this, the Hide section says this:Here's the definition of 'observe':Would you like to argue that someone touching you (especially in a grapple) would not cause you to become aware of them or notice them?Thanks.DrSpunj</blockquote>

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