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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1440154" data-attributes="member: 994">First off, assuming these rules are in a form I'm willing to adopt IMC, I'll be calling the secondary skill either Awareness or Perception. Both of those paint the "right" mental imagery for me when I think about asking repeatedly for checks using those skills.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make a Spot check...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make an Awareness check...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make a Perception check...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make a Notice check...</li> </ul>That last one makes me think we're all sitting around having afternoon tea and we're trying to figure out if the waiter is coming with the crumpets yet. (Sorry, Nail! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> )I like much of what you've written here, Nail, but I do have a couple comments. The first is about the third bullet point under Spot. I think it should read:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Either Spot or Awareness checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. If both may be used, you can choose which skill to use and may receive a bonus to the check representing bringing multiple senses to bear.</li> </ul>Just like Nifft was doing in his posts on the front page of this thread, there should be a bonus for bringing multiple senses to bear at the same time, but I think each creature should be able to choose which skill to actually roll if either one will work.The second thing, and the largest by far, is that I think you've "cheapened" the secondary skill too much, and now that I think about it, that may be what Nifft is refering to. Quite frankly, I'd have to agree with him.If Spot has all the Special bonuses you've listed for Hearing, Scent, Blindsense & Tremorsense, why would anyone bother to put anymore than 5 ranks (for the +2 synergy bonus) into Awareness? Every creature is better off (even if they're not primarily a visually-oriented creature) to keeping Spot maxed, putting no more than 5 ranks in Awareness, and then getting a bunch of secondary bonuses for their extra senses to their Spot roll.I think it's very important to keep all those extra sense bonuses internal to Awareness. That is, if a creature has Scent, Tremorsense, Hearing, and/or Blindsense, wouldn't they probably rely on those senses at least as much, if not more, than their vision with Spot?To keep that distinction in a mechanical sense, all those Special bonuses you've listed under Spot I think need to be removed and placed under the Awareness skill. The only synergies that should be allowed between Spot and Awareness, IMO, are the 5 rank/+2 synergy bonus AND a bonus to represent using both of them at the same time (regardless of which one you actually roll) like I mentioned at the top of this post regarding Spot's third bullet point. If you've got special senses, then you should be getting more bonuses, putting more ranks and making more rolls with Awareness.I think that will keep them both useful and make them very distinct. If a creature is primarily visual (like most PC races) but also has one other sense (like Hearing), they'll be better off maxing Spot and putting 5 ranks into Awareness. OTOH, for a creature that has more than one other sense like Hearing, Scent, Tremorsense or Blindsense, they'll actually be better represented & served by keeping Awareness maxed with 5 ranks in Spot.Now, as to whether or not some bonuses should be +2 vs +4, well, I just don't feel too strongly about it. But here's a few thoughts:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I like the "+2 synergy for 5 ranks" bonus between the two skills. I think it should work both ways for obvious reasons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">With the "+2 synergy for 5 ranks" bonus in place, I think a simple +2 bonus is enough to represent bringing both Spot & Awareness to bear. That is, when both checks could be used the creature gets to pick whichever one to roll and gets a +2 from the other one being useful.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I don't mind using a flat +4 bonus to Awareness for each special sense beyond the first. I know the rules stipulate that Tremorsense & Blindsense are better senses than Hearing & Scent, but a flat +4 is much easier to remember.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">That being said, it's also not overly complex to remember that Scent gives a +2 and Tremorsense/Blindsense each give a +4.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It almost seems that Hearing should be the "base" sense in Awareness since it's the most universal across all creatures. I know there are a few out there who are deaf, but they universally have other senses (Tremorsense usually, IIRC), but it's easy enough to say those creatures get a -2 deaf penalty (that wouldn't completely cancel out their +4 from Tremorsense or Blindsense). They'd still get to make Awareness checks, unlike a creature without any other special senses than Hearing whose deaf (they'd have to rely completely on Spot, and IMO would lose the +2 synergy from 5 ranks in Awareness while they were deaf).</li> </ul>Hope that all made sense! [<- Not trying to be punny. Really!  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> ]Thanks.DrSpunj</blockquote>

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