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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6501584" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I agree with Innerdude's words here. Let me also say GMforPowergamers that when folks are quoting like 3 out of 4 folks don't care about the changes from 4e to 5e or 4e was this terrible aberration "because anecdote", understand that this is just edition warrior nonsense. Unfortunately, there are a large number of extremely thoughtful 4e advocates who just flat out don't post here much at all (or at all) anymore. Its a shame as its created something of an echo chamber and lots of utterly erroneous stuff and a edition warrior salvos really mostly go unchallenged now. I couldn't care less anymore personally so you don't see me posting much in response to those things.</p><p></p><p>To your point:</p><p></p><p>To whatever degree you, me, or anyone else have decided that a singular instance of hit point loss is % meat, there is verifiably no consequence to the actor, within the fiction, who sustained said loss. Therefore, Hit Points have never been any consequential percentage of meat. They have been, and still are, an artefact of a war-gaming chassis which merrily serves its ends:</p><p></p><p>1) Play procedure expedience at the table</p><p></p><p>2) Narrative malleability</p><p></p><p>Depending on whatever other abstractions (eg armor class mesh of avoidance and mitigation, action economy in <em>n </em>seconds) that are layered upon and interface directly with the nebulous ablation system of HP, you are going to have a system that renders incoherent any arbitrarily chosen instance of HP loss as consequentially meat. </p><p></p><p>Conversely, impose a death spiral/injury mechanic (*) upon the system and remove those abstractions (eg break out AC into mitigation and avoidance), and you're approaching territory where "any arbitrarily chosen instance of HP loss as consequentially meat" becomes more tenable. </p><p></p><p>But again, if you're going to go that far, you will have likely eschewed HP already because 1 and 2 above are not top-level play priorities for you. (1) Play procedure expedience becomes subordinate to process-simulation mechanics which, by their nature are less expedient but offer something else in return. Further, (2) narrative malleability is anathema to your play agenda because you want "I attack with my sword, hit, and cause damage" <strong><em>to always and only mean</em></strong> "dude 1 strikes <strong><em>1</em></strong> time with weapon and cleaves/smashes/stabs musculoskeletal system (and possibly organs) of dude 2 and causes physical harm to dude 2."</p><p></p><p>That is enough for now. I'll try to post more later with specific play examples and talk specifically about 4e's machinery and genre expectations.</p><p></p><p></p><p>* Amusingly enough, 4e is the first D&D system to come stock with a perfectly synthesized mechanic that makes handling of lasting, consequential injury a seamless thing - the Disease Track.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6501584, member: 6696971"] I agree with Innerdude's words here. Let me also say GMforPowergamers that when folks are quoting like 3 out of 4 folks don't care about the changes from 4e to 5e or 4e was this terrible aberration "because anecdote", understand that this is just edition warrior nonsense. Unfortunately, there are a large number of extremely thoughtful 4e advocates who just flat out don't post here much at all (or at all) anymore. Its a shame as its created something of an echo chamber and lots of utterly erroneous stuff and a edition warrior salvos really mostly go unchallenged now. I couldn't care less anymore personally so you don't see me posting much in response to those things. To your point: To whatever degree you, me, or anyone else have decided that a singular instance of hit point loss is % meat, there is verifiably no consequence to the actor, within the fiction, who sustained said loss. Therefore, Hit Points have never been any consequential percentage of meat. They have been, and still are, an artefact of a war-gaming chassis which merrily serves its ends: 1) Play procedure expedience at the table 2) Narrative malleability Depending on whatever other abstractions (eg armor class mesh of avoidance and mitigation, action economy in [I]n [/I]seconds) that are layered upon and interface directly with the nebulous ablation system of HP, you are going to have a system that renders incoherent any arbitrarily chosen instance of HP loss as consequentially meat. Conversely, impose a death spiral/injury mechanic (*) upon the system and remove those abstractions (eg break out AC into mitigation and avoidance), and you're approaching territory where "any arbitrarily chosen instance of HP loss as consequentially meat" becomes more tenable. But again, if you're going to go that far, you will have likely eschewed HP already because 1 and 2 above are not top-level play priorities for you. (1) Play procedure expedience becomes subordinate to process-simulation mechanics which, by their nature are less expedient but offer something else in return. Further, (2) narrative malleability is anathema to your play agenda because you want "I attack with my sword, hit, and cause damage" [B][I]to always and only mean[/I][/B] "dude 1 strikes [B][I]1[/I][/B] time with weapon and cleaves/smashes/stabs musculoskeletal system (and possibly organs) of dude 2 and causes physical harm to dude 2." That is enough for now. I'll try to post more later with specific play examples and talk specifically about 4e's machinery and genre expectations. * Amusingly enough, 4e is the first D&D system to come stock with a perfectly synthesized mechanic that makes handling of lasting, consequential injury a seamless thing - the Disease Track. [/QUOTE]
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