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<blockquote data-quote="VelvetViolet" data-source="post: 7636178" data-attributes="member: 6686357"><p>How many examples do we have of pre-modern magic systems, much less ones that fail and show us how not to do it? Fantasy gaming almost never tries to defy the modern mechanistic model, so I don't have much context for your complaints beyond those that apply outside of magic like the abstraction over realism. We can't say pre-modern magic is inferior when there's such a paucity of examples to compare. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is the magic system in <em>Nephillim</em>, which is literally called "occult science."</p><p></p><p>I prefer pre-modern magic because it simply feels more interesting, logical, rational, and ironically more scientific compared to D&D magic. D&D magic feels fake and tacked-on, not holistic or believable at all. D&D magic doesn't feel like part of a living world, it feels obviously like a gaming convention. Simulating a genuinely living world would logically involve pre-modern magic, not D&D magic.</p><p></p><p>Take the example of <em>tongues </em>spell and derivatives. I can't think of any logical reason that it would work differently from the standard language rules other than because the magic rules say so. The use of limited duration feels random in D&D, when fairy tales and even fantasy fiction generally have symbolic or logical justifications. <em>Star Trek</em>'s universal translators don't have that limitation, for example.</p><p></p><p>If you're going to argue that we should be simulating living worlds, then that opens a whole can of worms. The mundane vs magical healing example is pertinent here. If you have distinct magical healing, then that's going to result in people becoming dependent on it and forgetting to learn mundane healing. This is a key plot point in the <em>Chronicles of Everfall</em> novel series.</p><p></p><p>I could list numerous examples like the Tippyverse and so forth, but my point is that the excessively mechanistic D&D magic introduces just as much if not more problems with world building and so forth as pre-modern magic does. That's probably why D&D magic is only used by fiction directly inspired by D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="VelvetViolet, post: 7636178, member: 6686357"] How many examples do we have of pre-modern magic systems, much less ones that fail and show us how not to do it? Fantasy gaming almost never tries to defy the modern mechanistic model, so I don't have much context for your complaints beyond those that apply outside of magic like the abstraction over realism. We can't say pre-modern magic is inferior when there's such a paucity of examples to compare. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is the magic system in [I]Nephillim[/I], which is literally called "occult science." I prefer pre-modern magic because it simply feels more interesting, logical, rational, and ironically more scientific compared to D&D magic. D&D magic feels fake and tacked-on, not holistic or believable at all. D&D magic doesn't feel like part of a living world, it feels obviously like a gaming convention. Simulating a genuinely living world would logically involve pre-modern magic, not D&D magic. Take the example of [I]tongues [/I]spell and derivatives. I can't think of any logical reason that it would work differently from the standard language rules other than because the magic rules say so. The use of limited duration feels random in D&D, when fairy tales and even fantasy fiction generally have symbolic or logical justifications. [I]Star Trek[/I]'s universal translators don't have that limitation, for example. If you're going to argue that we should be simulating living worlds, then that opens a whole can of worms. The mundane vs magical healing example is pertinent here. If you have distinct magical healing, then that's going to result in people becoming dependent on it and forgetting to learn mundane healing. This is a key plot point in the [I]Chronicles of Everfall[/I] novel series. I could list numerous examples like the Tippyverse and so forth, but my point is that the excessively mechanistic D&D magic introduces just as much if not more problems with world building and so forth as pre-modern magic does. That's probably why D&D magic is only used by fiction directly inspired by D&D. [/QUOTE]
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