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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7636202" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I'm not sure I understand the terms you've defined here. What do you mean by "pre-modern magic systems"? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I feel like that involves a lot of feelings and that feelings are highly subjective things. I don't understand how you go from something feeling interesting to logically requiring something, and I'm still not sure how you define "pre-modern magic". Is that different from "pre-modern magic systems"? What are the characteristics of "pre-modern magic"?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no idea what you mean here. What would a tongues spell that worked like standard language rules look like in your opinion and why is it logical that the tongues spell would work like standard language? </p><p></p><p>In it's background, "Tongues" is like most spells in D&D based off Biblical miracles which Gygax owing it his background was very familiar with. So in this case Tongues in some sense emulates the logic of receiving the ability to speak in and understand tongues which you do not know as a temporary divine revelation. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't understand. What do you mean by "symbolic or logical justifications"? And when you mention fairy tales and fantasy fiction, which ones in particular are you thinking of?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, but Star Trek's universal translator is meant to be scientific and not a divine revelation. On the other hand, Star Trek's universal translator is from one perspective probably more fantastic than a divine revelation, something that Douglas Adams lampshades with his 'Babel Fish' jokes. Based on what we know of current science, the existence of what would essentially be an instantaneous universal decryption device is less probable than divine revelation. And for that matter, Star Trek isn't as clear cut science fiction as you might think, and might be a classic case of Science Fantasy - elven wizards (Spock and his mind probes) and space orcs (Klingons). All the technobabble merely provides a setting veneer behind which is often just magic and fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Based on my play experiences in systems that have both mundane healing skill and magical healing, this doesn't seem to be true. If players chose to totally forgo mundane healing in favor of magical healing, then you might have a point. But in every game system where both are available, players learn both mundane healing skill and magical healing ability. Further, since we can assume players probably have greater than normal access to magical healing, we can presume that for the rest of the community as a whole mundane healing ability is even more important. So I don't think this objection holds in a general case, although of course you could create a setting where magical healing was so pervasive that healing skill of a more mundane sort had withered.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not familiar with the details of the arguments around the Tippyverse, but in general I tend to think the issue that the Tippyverse is addressing, namely, "If the postulates of the setting were true, then would the setting actually exist as described?" is not one remotely unique to D&D but is pretty much universal to all speculative fiction. "Star Trek" is a case in point of a setting that tends to introduce a stand alone "problem of the week" which is then resolved by some methodology but then the neither the problem nor the cure tends to ever be referenced again. The full implications of the postulated world and its technology, economics, politics and so forth are never really reconciled together. I don't think this is a problem that would go away if the D&D magic system was less "mechanistic" (though I don't really know what that means to you) and if anything a less mechanistic system would just make it harder to imagine how the setting ought to be were the implications of its parts brought to their logical conclusions.</p><p></p><p>IMO, D&D magic is in one way or the other the most influential magical thought in the entire history of fantasy. Virtually all modern fantasy fiction is in one fashion or the other inspired by D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7636202, member: 4937"] I'm not sure I understand the terms you've defined here. What do you mean by "pre-modern magic systems"? I feel like that involves a lot of feelings and that feelings are highly subjective things. I don't understand how you go from something feeling interesting to logically requiring something, and I'm still not sure how you define "pre-modern magic". Is that different from "pre-modern magic systems"? What are the characteristics of "pre-modern magic"? I have no idea what you mean here. What would a tongues spell that worked like standard language rules look like in your opinion and why is it logical that the tongues spell would work like standard language? In it's background, "Tongues" is like most spells in D&D based off Biblical miracles which Gygax owing it his background was very familiar with. So in this case Tongues in some sense emulates the logic of receiving the ability to speak in and understand tongues which you do not know as a temporary divine revelation. I don't understand. What do you mean by "symbolic or logical justifications"? And when you mention fairy tales and fantasy fiction, which ones in particular are you thinking of? Yes, but Star Trek's universal translator is meant to be scientific and not a divine revelation. On the other hand, Star Trek's universal translator is from one perspective probably more fantastic than a divine revelation, something that Douglas Adams lampshades with his 'Babel Fish' jokes. Based on what we know of current science, the existence of what would essentially be an instantaneous universal decryption device is less probable than divine revelation. And for that matter, Star Trek isn't as clear cut science fiction as you might think, and might be a classic case of Science Fantasy - elven wizards (Spock and his mind probes) and space orcs (Klingons). All the technobabble merely provides a setting veneer behind which is often just magic and fantasy. Based on my play experiences in systems that have both mundane healing skill and magical healing, this doesn't seem to be true. If players chose to totally forgo mundane healing in favor of magical healing, then you might have a point. But in every game system where both are available, players learn both mundane healing skill and magical healing ability. Further, since we can assume players probably have greater than normal access to magical healing, we can presume that for the rest of the community as a whole mundane healing ability is even more important. So I don't think this objection holds in a general case, although of course you could create a setting where magical healing was so pervasive that healing skill of a more mundane sort had withered. I'm not familiar with the details of the arguments around the Tippyverse, but in general I tend to think the issue that the Tippyverse is addressing, namely, "If the postulates of the setting were true, then would the setting actually exist as described?" is not one remotely unique to D&D but is pretty much universal to all speculative fiction. "Star Trek" is a case in point of a setting that tends to introduce a stand alone "problem of the week" which is then resolved by some methodology but then the neither the problem nor the cure tends to ever be referenced again. The full implications of the postulated world and its technology, economics, politics and so forth are never really reconciled together. I don't think this is a problem that would go away if the D&D magic system was less "mechanistic" (though I don't really know what that means to you) and if anything a less mechanistic system would just make it harder to imagine how the setting ought to be were the implications of its parts brought to their logical conclusions. IMO, D&D magic is in one way or the other the most influential magical thought in the entire history of fantasy. Virtually all modern fantasy fiction is in one fashion or the other inspired by D&D. [/QUOTE]
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