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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ferratus" data-source="post: 4674353" data-attributes="member: 55966">Except the mass amount of the depopulation was done by the secular authorities, who wanted to re-establish their authority.   The Albigensians weren't all sweetness and light either, but a rather ruthless cult that killed many people who didn't go along with their religious views.   It is always tempting to view the heretics as heroes standing up against the power of the institution, but just remember that a lot of these guys would be the type to fly planes into buildings in this day and age.Umm... no.  Torture came about from both secular and religious revival of Roman and Byzantine Law, in which people of the lower classes (humiliores) in the Roman Empire were considered to be incapable to give testimony honestly, like slaves during the earlier Roman Empire.  The upper class (nobiles) were immune from torture, and preserved that right from Roman citizens.Yeah, because the Cathars were known for their rigorous pursuit of knowledge, rather than burning books and rampant anti-intellectualism.  The Cathars were definately of the "from your gut is all you need" brand of spirituality.Actually, the Jews were expelled.  The inquisition went against conversos or Muslim and Jewish converts to Christianity who were suspected of not being faithful.   The crown appreciated this, because Isabella could seize property and money from those found guilty, and replace the people in administrative positions in the conquered territory of Granada with their own appointees.One should also note that the methods of the Spanish inquisition were not unusual at the time, or indeed in a Roman court centuries earlier.You can't blame the Dominicans for the stain of using torture.  As I've said, both the secular and religious courts started following Rome's lead on this with the revival of Roman Law.  In fact, the Dominicans were formed as the order of preachers precisely because they wished to use non-violent methods to return people to the fold.   The only reason the Dominicans are implicated was because they were often entrusted with offices of responsibility because of their learning, but many other religious orders and secular priests were involved in courts and judgements.   I would not say that the Dominicans were any more oppressive than the Franciscans for example, but the Franciscans get off easy because they have better PR among lefties.As for the church courts being so cruel and vicious, if that was true you wouldn't have everybody that was able to trying to be tried by church courts whenever possible.   The simple fact is that church courts were extremely lenient by secular standards when confronted by sincerly repentant offenders, and often simply forgave the offender.No, women had a lot more independence and roles in both the church and society before the reformation.    No, bathing was perfectly acceptable (if expensive) in the high middle ages and most towns had a bathhouse.  I think it is quite understandable that the monks didn't like the prostitution that went on in places like this though.  No, the church didn't have a horror of technology at all, I have absolutely no idea where you are getting that from.  They hated certain killing machines like crossbows, but not technological advances in general.No, control of information first became a particular obsession with the dawn of the Reformation, which is somewhat understandable given how many people were killed by that religious uprising.  The church blamed the reformation largely on poorly thought out theology and dangerous ideas, which explains both indexes of forbidden books and the new Jesuit Order's emphasis on education.</blockquote>

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