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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Galloglaich" data-source="post: 4674651" data-attributes="member: 77019">You are making assumptions in favor of your own argument. I never said that and I don't think it was the case. You have one very specific worldview and carry an idea of a particular opposing worldview you have decided, without evidence, that I have. Pause and re-examine our discussion, you are filling in the blanks yourself.  I wasn't the one who brought up the Spanish Inquisition. You are playing games here. And most of what I was discussing was the Inqusition in relation to the Albigensian Crusade which was in the Medieval period (13th Century).  I never said they were more just, show me where I said that? I said that they got their ideas of the legal viability of Torture from the Church.  Agreed.   This is spin. If the Cathars were forcing their beliefs on the people, as if they were some conquering army (like the Anti-Cathar Crusaders were), why did Catholics all over the South of France fight to the death to defend them?  Again, I never said they were good guys. I said the region was prosperous and thriving intelectually regardless of their presence. I said they were effectively laissez faires, do you refute that? I also specifcally pointed out that they were no better or worse than any other religious doctrine as far as I can tell.  No, I think that is an accurate figure. I'm at least as well informed on this era as you are, even though you are trying to pretend you have expertise here that no-one else has. Once again your ASS-ume.  "buko?" Seriously? Trial by ordeal arrived after Christianity as I'm sure you are well aware, largely to replace dueling.  This was the old Tribal law. The Roman law was all the torture etc.  Wheras in Tribal society outlawry had actually been effective. Once the structure became more hierarchical, Roman methods were selected in favor of the old "barbarian" ways.  That is pretty much what a Pogrom is. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom" target="_blank">Pogrom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a>   Once again you ASSume. You don't know a thing about me and your interpretation of Tribal customs if charicteristically facile. You seem in this case to be ASSuming that A) I wouldn't have any family or property(actually I also have a large family) that B) that you would be more popular than I am, C) that I'm not part of say, a sworn brotherhood of some kind (I have a lot of close friends who are ex-military) or D) under the patronage of a powerful Chieftain (such as the Dark Age equivalent of my current employer). And in additon to the unknown factor of how many allies each of us had, assuming I was a free man like 90% of society, whether or not your could oppose your will upon me would depend on which one of us could fight, since by Germanic Tribal law I could challenge you to a duel even if I didn't have as large of a family. And I'd be willing to take my chances, I have been studying martial arts and handling swords for twenty five years. The truth is Tribal culture was very complex and the Assemblies rarely bent to the will of one family. In pagan tims European Clans tended to do their best to prevent accumulations of power. And frankly I'd be delighted to go out to the island with you mate, if I didn't have to worry about legal consequences I'd do that on very slight provocation.  I can think of a few institutions I'd like to challenge to Holmgang right now if I was allowed to.  You can't have it both ways, you already pointed out the secular authorities did the same (i.e. most punishments were fines). But they didn't conduct inquisitions.   Thats why they used to have public baths for the common people, and it's also why so many very old European villages and towns are situated on hot springs. Look at a map of Germany and count how many towns have the name "baden" in them, it means bath. There were large towns, and internatonal trade way before the 14th Century.  That would be a long list! But just to cite one example relevant to this thread: upthread a few posts there is a very interesting discussion about Mnemonics. One of the leaders in the field during the Renaissance (not talking about the Middle Ages here) was Giodorno Bruno, who invented several sophisticated Mnemonic systems, among other things. As a result he was charged with heresy, blasphemy and burned at the stake for this innovation, among other reasons for his doctrine that there may be other worlds. In spite of seeking forgiveness from the Church as you so frequently suggest could be a panecea.  This is still an excellent example, even though it's limited in scope. Because of course the notion that a Crossbow is any more lethal than a lance, a sword, or an axe is utterly laughable. The problem (from the point of view of the Church) is that it is the type of weapon which could be manufacturerd and distributed to urban militias who could fairly easily be trained to use it, as famously happened in many Italian towns such as Genoa, and further up into Switzerland etc. The idea that it's due to tenderness or concern for human suffering is laughable.  Wrong. I never said that. I'm not some fanatical humanist or materialist. I think mate that you are projecting your own creation in order to argue with your imagined enemies. Since you are making a lot of wild speculation about me, I'll make a guess about you: I suspect that when people disagree with you you assign them to a particular very specific category, and you "fill in the blanks" in your mind. You are clearly reasonably well informed in pre-industrial European history. So am I. We can share what information we have, people here are probably more interested in that than in either of our opinions. Meanwhile please don't make assumptions about me, and I'll try to return the favor. G.</blockquote>

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