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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PeterWeller" data-source="post: 3837862" data-attributes="member: 55795">I don't think he's so much seeing something that isn't there as he is seeing something that is there and treating it as bad just because of what it is.  There's nothing wrong with D&D learning from what is and isn't successful in the MMO model and applying that to D&D in some way, shape or form.  The PnP community bashes MMOs for obvious faults, but often ignores where their strengths lie and how these strengths can improve the table top experience.  Giving Fighters, Rogues and their ilk more abilities than just "I (sneak) attack" is one example of where 4E D&D has apparently absorbed and integrated lessons learned by MMO developers; evening out the power balance between different classes of like levels is another.I think the problem many PnP gamers have (and I think this because it is the problem I have) with MMOs is that they can't provide the, in simplest terms, sense of impact that playing at the table can.  Due to artificial limitations (because of the limitations of a computer game), you simply don't have the freedom of decision and action in an MMO or other CRPG that you have at the table.  You can't interact with the NPCs and the environment in a MMO like in you can at the table because of the limitations of computing power.  At the same time, you can't feel the sense of achievement in a MMO like you can at the table because of the scripted, pre-plotted nature of the story.  You're, no matter how harrowing and exciting the experience was, just another guy who completed the same quest a thousand other players have completed before, and because you are in a shared world with these thousands of other players, it is imminently obvious that this is the situations (as opposed to an adventure module, where while you will have completed the same adventure many other players completed, you have, generally, completed it in isolation from those other players).  Now, there's a handful of MMOs that have fulfilled this.  EVE is a good example, SWG and UO in their primes are others.  Still, these had other problems, from balance to grind to bugs that have crippled them and left them huddling at the edges of the market dominated by WoW.  Which brings me to the following:  MMOs, of which WoW is the most successful have realized that it is easier not to try and emulate the freedom of action and impact of action that a PnP game can provide, and instead focus on the secondary, but still very important facet of almost all PnP RPGs, combat.  MMOs have focused on combat to the almost exclusion of all other facets of RPing.  In doing so, they have provided a great deal of insight into what makes fun, balanced RPG combat.  Now, while because of this, the very idea of playing an MMO, or letting D&D become more like an MMO can feel downright disgusting.  After all, we play PnP games instead of MMOs because they allow that freedom and impact of action that CRPGs often sorely lack, but applying the lessons learned in combat and class balance from MMOs to PnP games is nothing but taking advantage of the work done by MMO developers just like they took advantage of the work done by PnP developers.And again, I feel bad for ranting.  I'm just feeling particularly verbose tonight.</blockquote>

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