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Message: <blockquote data-quote="strongbow" data-source="post: 1592432" data-attributes="member: 2650">A nice, reasoned response.  Thank you Nail.  My retorts:1) Scry- You don't need to Scry to go take someone/thing out.  Discern Location will thwart any means of blocking except Mind Blank.  Mind Blank is not cheap.  My point is here that while Mind Blank is the same level as Discern Location and provides absolute protection, such protection is not provided for a BBEG's minions.  Discern Location enables the party to find the lieutenants and such that will not be protected.2) Buff.  Discern Location does not let the target know that it has been cast in relation to him.  It has a ten minute cast time, during which others can buff and prepare as they see fit.  Except for round/level spells, a high level spellcaster can cast all his/her minute per level buffs before casting Discern Location.  Furthermore Greater Scrying has a one action cast time, but is relatively easy countered.3)Teleport.  You don't have to necessarily hit the enemy stronghold.  A high level Control Winds will collapse it if aboveground, and I can think of a few ways to completely collapse an underground stronghold as well.  So as long as you don't mind picking through rubble, you can take out a place in one fell swoop.  Certainly these methods are not "sporting", but they are efficient.  Instead of clearing the tower, you destroy the whole thing.  Certainly there may be other considerations such as hostages, but sometimes you just want someone dead.4)Initiative.  DMs may handle this different ways, but I offer that Teleport should be treated as everyone's surprise round action, then regular init is rolled.  This does not give undue credit to either side.  I have seen DMs that give the teleporters surprise, and I have seen DMs that let the other side go as a quasi-antisurprise of which you mention.  I do not wish to start a discussion about how initiative should be handled, as I feel that it is DM's priviledge to run it how he/she would like.  5)I would like to hear of more WOTC/3rd party spells to address this.  So far someone has mentioned two from BoED.  Any others, with the book they are from? 6)Thank you for your comments.</blockquote>

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