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<blockquote data-quote="Nail" data-source="post: 1593901" data-attributes="member: 224">..and I appreciate the challenge of reasoned counters.Discern Location is only useful if you have Greater Teleport; everything else requires that you've seen the spot at least once.&nbsp; So: we're no longer talking about a few mid-level spells being the beat-all meal ticket, are we?&nbsp; We're talking about a Wiz 15 and his cronies.....meaning his enemies are of approximately the same level and power (or higher).&nbsp; Mind Blank is an option to these BBEGs.Discern Location doesn't let you know what the subject is doing.&nbsp; That could be a big deal, depending on how the BBEG works it.&nbsp; I'm thinking that Divinations and Communes from the BBEG could find out when/where the heroes will be arriving.Discern location requires that you've seen the BBEG, or have an item that once belonged to it.&nbsp; That's a speed bump, at least.Of course.&nbsp; Nor will the PC's lieutenants be protected, etc.&nbsp; Moreover, the PCs actually have to track down the lieutenants....which sounds an awful lot like a normal high level adventure. How do you find the BBEG's lieutenants, track them back to the BBEGs lair, and then take out the BBEG (all without alerting the BBEG that you're doing this)?&nbsp; This is NOT a one-step process.And all of these buffs can be stripped away with a Greater Dispel Magic, or even MD.&nbsp; After they teleport in, all of the strike team is in a small, convenient radius.Even so: we're no longer taking about something you can do starting level 9, eh?Depending on it's construction, yes.&nbsp; To do so to most BBEG lairs, we're talking Level 15 again...and only if they're not fortified.&nbsp; If they are: no damage, even from a tornado.It's all well and good to destroy a large body of mooks....but really, at that level, it wasn't the mooks you were worried about.This is no longer &quot;rules territory&quot;.&nbsp; Now we're talkin' about how the DM handles the campaign and the PCs world.&nbsp; Tons of ways to make this sort of &quot;Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out&quot; attitude be a big problem for whoever tries it.&nbsp; Not least of which: It's Evil.Maybe, maybe not.&nbsp; Again, no longer a &quot;rules&quot; problem, more of a &quot;current situation dictates&quot; problem.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nail, post: 1593901, member: 224"] ..and I appreciate the challenge of reasoned counters. Discern Location is only useful if you have Greater Teleport; everything else requires that you've seen the spot at least once. So: we're no longer talking about a few mid-level spells being the beat-all meal ticket, are we? We're talking about a Wiz 15 and his cronies.....meaning his enemies are of approximately the same level and power (or higher). Mind Blank is an option to these BBEGs. Discern Location doesn't let you know what the subject is doing. That could be a big deal, depending on how the BBEG works it. I'm thinking that Divinations and Communes from the BBEG could find out when/where the heroes will be arriving. Discern location requires that you've seen the BBEG, or have an item that once belonged to it. That's a speed bump, at least. Of course. Nor will the PC's lieutenants be protected, etc. Moreover, the PCs actually have to track down the lieutenants....which sounds an awful lot like a normal high level adventure. How do you find the BBEG's lieutenants, track them back to the BBEGs lair, and then take out the BBEG (all without alerting the BBEG that you're doing this)? This is NOT a one-step process. And all of these buffs can be stripped away with a Greater Dispel Magic, or even MD. After they teleport in, all of the strike team is in a small, convenient radius. Even so: we're no longer taking about something you can do starting level 9, eh? Depending on it's construction, yes. To do so to most BBEG lairs, we're talking Level 15 again...and only if they're not fortified. If they are: no damage, even from a tornado. It's all well and good to destroy a large body of mooks....but really, at that level, it wasn't the mooks you were worried about. This is no longer "rules territory". Now we're talkin' about how the DM handles the campaign and the PCs world. Tons of ways to make this sort of "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out" attitude be a big problem for whoever tries it. Not least of which: It's [color=red]Evil[/color]. Maybe, maybe not. Again, no longer a "rules" problem, more of a "current situation dictates" problem. [/QUOTE]

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