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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TKDB" data-source="post: 5879267" data-attributes="member: 6690697">Frankly, I beg to differ. If something exists, it stands to reason that it can be found if you look hard enough and know what clues to look for. The Search skill entails having an understanding of what to look for (there's a reason the key ability is Int), and beyond that it's a matter of equipment and effort. Taking 20 means giving it maximum effort, being as thorough as possible. And it's not simply "a matter of time", because there is an upper limit to what a character can accomplish by taking 20 at any given point in their career. If you absolutely need to have something that absolutely under no circumstances can be found by the PCs, (1) you better have a good reason for why this is the case, and (2) you simply set the DC above the maximum your PCs are capable of hitting given their current level and gear -- or just don't set a DC at all. Just as you don't require rolls for something where there is negligible chance of failure, likewise a roll shouldn't be allowed for something where success is supposed to be possible.And also, while 3.x isn't quite as emphatic on this point as other games are, the fact is that in any gaming context, common sense comes first. Even if there isn't an urgent time constraint, is it really reasonable in-character that you would spend such a tremendous amount of time on poring over every square inch of the dungeon in excruciating detail? Like I noted earlier, doing this would take days even for a modest-sized dungeon (the one I was working with was for a short one-shot, not very large at all). Plain and simple, unless there's something very important that you're looking for, going to that kind of extreme is just acting out-of-character.You could say there's a problem with the system in that there's no mechanical method to represent/enforce the in-character mental fatigue that would certainly accompany extended periods of such thorough searching, but to say that the problem lies in the fact that you "can't hide anything" is just silly. If you invest character resources (skill points) into being good at noticing subtle details, you get a commensurate ability to notice those details; likewise, if you invest in-game time into being particularly thorough, it's only right that there's a payoff for that.</blockquote>

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