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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pickaxe" data-source="post: 2823890" data-attributes="member: 10812">Is it a game design flaw if PCs fail to grasp the importance of Spot and Listen? Of the eleven core classes, five have neither Spot nor Listen as a class skill, but really only the cleric, paladin, and sorcerer are in a particular bind. A wizard's intelligence gives him skill points to spare, and a fighter's skills, IMO, are not so great that one can't afford to bump Spot every 2 levels or so. Even a cleric will be boosting Wisdom, which will effectively result in higher Spot/Listen. The issue also tends to be a non-issue, since most parties have someone with a high Spot, and that character is often capable of alerting the rest; in addition, NPCs have the same problem that PCs have, so generally there is no great change in the chance for PCs to be ambushed, except in the case of high-level ambush specialists (whom you'd expect would be more successful in this regard anyway).Nevertheless, the point can be made that Spot, Listen, and Search are different from other skills in a way that doesn't fit the skill mechanic. Skill points represent the PC's selective use of limited time to develop specific skills; you can't spend enough time to become better at everything. Spot, Listen, and Search, it could be argued, are integral parts of adventuring, and therefore, like BAB, one might expect them to improve without special attention by the PC. If we accept this premise, I can see two "fixes" to the 3E approach:1) The video game way: Everytime you use a skill, it improves (or has a chance to improve); so when you make a Spot roll, you might also improve your Spot skill. This, of course, entails a level of bookkeeping that few players and DMs would stand for.2) Deliver skills like Spot and Listen into the world of BAB and saves, i.e., with set improvements for each class with level progression. Classes could have different rates of progression, or they could be the same and use the skill point mechanic to reflect class differences. Simpler, but still requires another mechanic to be inserted into the existing ones.My guess is that, if the designers even considered this issue, simplicity won the day. More likely, the designers were too focused on fixing the even more ridiculous mechanics for surprise from 1e (and perhaps 2e; I didn't play enough to remember) to note this.--Axe</blockquote>

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