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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 2892687" data-attributes="member: 1465">Listen & Spot: I think it is utterly fair that only a few classes have them (actually I think more classes were given them in 3.5, and I disagree with that).My reasons:You do not need to max out [or just generally, you do not need very high ranks] in Listen and Spot. Other skills may require to steadily increase the rank through the levels, but not Listen and Spot. Generally speaking, a small or medium rank is useful even at high levels.There are some exceptionally stealthy monsters with huge bonuses in Move Silently/Hide; it should require an exceptional character (a Ranger for example) not to be surprised by such a creature. Having many PCs with ultra-high Listen/Spot can effectively negates the exceptional stealth too often.The other use for L&S is to notice sound/visual details, but the DC doesn't need to increase with the level.Search: normally hidden things could also have quite stable DCs, so that anyone may search for them. Traps and hidden doors should be fodder for certain classes (Rogue first). A party without a Rogue should just not be as good with traps as one with a Rogue (just like a party without a Wizard cannot complain it has no fireballs...). It is ok to give the option for a non-Rogue to be good at traps, but only a character basis, for instance by taking specific feats or otherwise by using a class variant: but giving Search for anyone because the party doesn't have a Rogue is bad.</blockquote>

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