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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JeffB" data-source="post: 6344292" data-attributes="member: 518">well, I can give some real world experience with complete newbies and the PFBB.When the BB came out in 2011. I was able to get my son and some of his friends to start playing on a regular basis, after unsuccessfully using other basic sets (3.5, mentzer, 4e).  The Kids were all 11/12 yo at the time. The things they liked were the books...the art. The PFBB was pretty and they loved to page through the books (not read them, just look,  like it was a Playboy <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> ) . They had fun creating their own characters. And they loved playing the intro dungeon. but by the time level 3 rolled around, they were frustrated. The Character sheets, leveling up, tracking skills, picking and using feats, modifiers for this and that in combat, as well as the pawns and grid caused massive analysis paralysis, and the games would drag. As a DM I loved its presentation and Moldvay-esque utility. I STILL do. It is a fantastic piece of work. I like that it gave you a small intro adventure, and then helped you create your own with the map, and some plot hooks. It is probably a  better DM teaching tool, than a a player teaching tool, IMO.  Ultimately As a DM, I was so disappointed that Paizo  did not support the game with adventures, but instead steered you into the full blown game. Converting/whittling down existing  PF Books and adventures were more work than creating my own. I understand their business perspective, but I still did not care for how it was handled, speaking as a consumer and Dad running a kids game.So on a whim after we finished CotE (which dragged on for a few months because of combat analysis paralysis) I ran a OD&D/SW game with a couple of watered down PF feats/abilities for each character, no grid or minis, a homebrew adventure in the OGB FR,  and that was what set the hook. It was a fantastic session, and they really got into the game, and the characters, and the story, and loved how fast paced and straightforward everything was. Over these 3 years  we have played some 4e (my own simplified ToTM style game somewhat like 13th Age), C&C, DCCRPG, straight up Holmes OD&D, 13th Age proper, a few NEXT playtests, and even CoC and RQ (Ballastor's Barracks was a real fun time). They have had fun with all of them. But some were much better than others, and we always gravitate back to OD&D/S&W. The Kids like story,colorful NPCs (including my bad acting/voices), setting, simple rules, light character sheets, TotM quick combat, and mysteries/puzzles. They have absolutely zero desire to learn how to min max, optimize, game the system, or even read the rules of any of the games, lol.  FWIW, all these kids get high grades in all subjects. everyone of them is a A/B student. Like a board game or  the Wii, they have a blast on game day, and then go home and look forward to the next gameday. It's very casual for them, but on gameday, they are on point.So in our situation, it was the double edged sword. PFBB got them hooked on the idea of RPGs, and I am very grateful for it. But the system was too much like work (for me too).  About a year ago, I had a hankering to run a particular PF module, and  I asked to revisit the old BB characters/game, and was met with a round of boos,and requests for me to convert the adventure to something else.  I tried putting the BB characters on notebook cards, eliminating things that were unnecessary to ease the busy-ness of the character sheet, but ultimately, they just did not want to deal with the system :shrug:Had we only PFBB as our system option, I would not be running a game for them tomorrow .  In fact we are running Lost Mine using characters created with Basic, and thrown into my Known World/Nerath/Nentir Vale mashup homebrew. They are excited about 5e, liked the playtest (more than me, I ran the Sunless Citadel several sessions, and I felt it was pretty blah, but it was the module I think, not the rules)  and 2 kids have actually gone out and made their first purchase EVER since we started to play. Just some dice, but that is a good sign  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I am a bit miffed there is so much combat, but I think there is tons of adventure potential there. I think the Starter Set is a much  better player product, with more adventure bang for the buck,but not nearly as good of a DM teaching tool as the PFBB is. That is my/our experience anyway.</blockquote>

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