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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 298427" data-attributes="member: 2011">Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See Invisibility Well, pretend that I missed it because quite frankly, I have no idea of what you are talking about with regard to this. Spell it out in simple English for me as opposed to avoiding the question.Why does True Seeing pierce the entire illusion in your interpretation when it only talks about visual elements in the spell description?This is the pertinent question that must be answered by you in order for you to validate your position.Otherwise, your entire position revolves around "because it does". That's not good enough to gain you credibility on this topic. See Silence Spell below.The illusion exists for you, but you know that it is an illusion and are not significantly affected by it.But, True Seeing does not state that it does this. It states that it allows you to see through illusions. It does not state that other elements of the illusion do not exist for you. If you cannot understand the difference after I have explained it several times, I cannot help you to do that.These are two different, but similar, game mechanics. If you think they are the same, that is where you are misunderstanding.Totally false.Ok, now I am starting to understand why you have a problem with this. No wonder you think my position is thin. You are still are not understanding it, otherwise you would have not posted this silly incorrect example since my position does not indicate that at all.Let's take the blind man example.You are equating the True Seeing spell negating the entire illusion.I am equating the True Seeing spell negating only the visual portion of the illusion.If the blind man walks up to it, he disbelieves the entire illusion if he disbelieves any portion of it. Why? Because he made his will save. That is how illusions work. Game Mechanic #1.But, the True Seeing spell does not give you automatic disbelief UNLESS it lets you know that there is actually an illusion there. Game Mechanic #2.Since your claim is that you have no clue that an illusion is there, why would the spell help you to save against the illusion? You are not immune to the illusion, you just do not SEE the visual portion of it. Effectively, you are ONLY immune to the visible portion of the illusion. That does not mean that you are immune to the entire spell.Within a Silence spell, you are ONLY immune to the audio portion of the illusion. That does not mean that you are immune to the entire spell. The Silence spell only allows you to not hear the illusion. True Seeing only allows you to not see the illusion.The blind man does not see the illusion either, but he still has to make a will save. Ditto for the guy with True Seeing IF and only IF True Seeing does not inform him of the illusion. Both of these are Game Mechanic #1. They both have to make their save.In this case, there is no difference between a blind guy and the guy with True Seeing.For the guy with True Seeing where it does inform him of the illusion, he automatically saves. Game Mechanic #2.Special caveat on this. When you get into the details of this, there is one element that must be taken into consideration:The DM might give you a bonus to your save against the touch and hearing portions of an illusion since you know you have True Seeing up and cannot see what is making the noise. But, in many cases, that's all he should do. It should not necessarily be automatic, but there are rare circumstances where it should.Example 1, the entire party sees the illusion of the Troll standing at the edge of the forest.The character with True Seeing sees the edge of the forest, but he still thinks the Troll growls are real unless he makes a will save. The DM might give him no bonus to this save since he doesn't see a creature, but the creature could be concealed in the woods and the True Seeing spell would not affect that.Example 2, the entire party sees the illusion of the Troll standing 100 feet away on a wide open plain.The character with True Seeing still thinks the Troll growls are real unless he makes a will save. The DM might give him a considerable +5 bonus to this save since he doesn't see a creature standing there, but the creature could be hiding in a hole or something in the grass and the True Seeing spell would not affect that.Example 3, the entire party sees the illusion of the Troll flying above them.The character with True Seeing sees nothing in the air, but he still hears the Troll growls unless he makes a will save. The DM might make the save automatic since there is no way for a creature to be invisible and flying in the air without the True Seeing showing the normal creature. Hence, it must be an illusion.Example 2 would be the most typical case. Usually, there are not a lot of places to hide or no place to hide. Hence, it should typically fall somewhere in between. So, the DM should often give a bonus to the save of some amount.</blockquote>

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