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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6954363" data-attributes="member: 6677017">Some more good thoughts on here.But it looks like there has been some drift into the topics of other threads (ie, "is there a problem?") so I'll briefly explain the problem. I'm not going to debate it on this thread.I'm comparing sorcerer to wizard because it is the most comparable class. They are both arcane casters with an identical number of spell slots, HD, weapon proficiencies, and a spell list that overlaps to a very large degree.They both get subclasses that seem to be inherently balanced. So there is no difference on the things stated above. The differences are below.Wizards get up to 25 spells prepared per day. Sorcerers get up to 15.Flexibility is a thing for wizards, so in addition to the greater spells  prepared, they get a spellbook where they can know a number of wizard  spells limited only to the wizard spells that exist in the multiverse.  That's fine--that's part of being a wizard. Sorcerers get proficiency in  Con saves. Let's just call those particular features equal enough and not worry about it.Wizards get arcane recovery once/day, sorcerers get daily spell points. If converted directly to spell slots, a sorcerer gets slightly more spells out of their sorcerer points than wizards get out of arcane recovery. Generally it's equal to one spell slot of their highest known spell level (maximum 5th), eventually adding one additional lower level slot. The lower level slot can be quite a bit lower, but after level 10 it climbs higher to a maximum of 4th level at level 20. So compared to arcane recovery, sorcery points can give a maximum of an extra 4th level spell slot per day, and a minimum of no extra spell slots per day.In exchange for that minor benefit wizards can cast unlimited ritual spells. So if you count utility spells (and you should) the number of effective spell slots they can access in a day is much greater than a sorcerer can.So in the number of spells castable per day, wizards are far ahead of sorcerers. Too far I would say. But lets say you disagree with that assessment because a sorcerer can use actual slotted spells, and that means combat spells are on the menu. I'll set my disagreement on that point aside, and see if it is even needed (it isn't) for the proposal I'm setting forward.So now we come down to the two problem areas I'm attempting to address.Sorcerers don't know enough spells, either on the sorcerer spell list (which I'll let WotC fix) or personally, to properly express thematic sorcerer concepts, including the fact that such concepts will know less spells than a wizard has prepared. We've tried to build them that way, we've failed.The other problem is that the sorcery points that sorcerers use to keep up with a wizard's arcane recovery and rituals, are also required for their subclass abilities. Wizard subclass abilities--which are on par with sorcerer subclass abilities, just work. They don't require using up spell slots or arcane recovery feature to use. Sorcerer subclass abilities directly take away from their effective spell slots per day.Maybe you have never felt the first issue because you concept is a red dragon sorcerer rather than a black dragon sorcerer, for instance, or maybe you've just never had days that were long enough to run out of spell slots or sorcery points, while a wizard is still going strong. That's fine. But the premise this thread it based on is that the wizard/sorcerer comparison is both mechanically imbalanced in favor of the wizard, and that the sorcerer suffers from an inability to mechanically represent thematic concepts that are implied to be appropriate for it, without trading excellence in functionality in return (and even then can't always achieve it).So, moving on.This is very interesting. Looking at the options, it actually seems like a great solution the to sorcery point conflict for the majority of them. The ones I question are empowered, quickened, and twinned. They seem like they might be a bit much. Thoughts on their balance?</blockquote>

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