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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pamphylian" data-source="post: 9751547" data-attributes="member: 7053769">I will readily accept "the long 80's" as an aesthetic era from spanning from circa 1977 to 2001, it's assumptions shattered by the dot com burst and 9/11. I guess I'm still sort of skeptical, maybe the only way to resolve this is extensive historical research and survey, but torches just seem like how the average person imagines that you light your way when its dark and you are in quasi-medieval/premodern land. Lanterns also extant in the imagination, but secondary. Darkvision, quite rare.  I don't have an encyclopedic recall of GoT but my impression was they were just what people would whip out anytime it was night or they were in a subterranean location. Here is Varys, in a Dungeon, with a Torch:[ATTACH=full]416640[/ATTACH]Here is Tyrion, in a Dungeon, with a Dragon (!) with a Torch:[ATTACH=full]416639[/ATTACH]I admit that I am not particularly attuned to the fantasy aesthetic zeitgeist of the 2020s. I have a vague impression that things have splintered into various subgenres quite a bit, but that LoTR and GoT still loom pretty large in the popular imagination of fantasy, along with (I think) more timeless pre-80s fairy tale stuff, your standard angry peasants with torches and pitchforks (maybe they aren't standard?). The Souls games (as you mentioned), the Elder Scrolls, (and maybe even Zelda?) would seem pay torch homage, at least for enemies and guards. I don't remember very prominent torches in Dungeon Meshi, but that show (haven't read manga) certainly spotlights the mundane logistics of dungeon crawling in other ways so I won't fault it for failing me here. Maybe torches are not always an "aesthetic" but the lines between aesthetic and a sort of stand in for "ubiquitous practical tool for lighting dark spaces" seem a bit blurry! Genuinely interested what else constitutes the most prominent reference point video games and literature for torchless fantasy these days, as all mine are surely out of date. Lanterns can be pretty atmospheric (see figure 3, not helping my 80s case, but see also Morrowind, I guess also not helping my 80s case)! And like torches, you probably have to hold them in your hand, require a resource (oil), etc. And they are going out if you fall into a pit of water, and maybe if you just fall a ways. Bug lanterns might be mundane depending on the setting.  I think my contrast here is between the hypothetical where darkness is can be a tangible force in the game to be actively countered, possibly at cost, and possibly a threat if things go bad, at least in the earliest tier of play, and, say, first level darkvision, and the light cantrip, which are (at least in effect), pretty close to darkness-off switches - which is fine, but I suppose why bother at that point, just hand wave it all with everburning wall sconces. Again, I have no problem with not dealing with darkness, there are tables, settings, and locations where it doesn't make sense for it to come up. My intention was not to become a torch fetishist!  Though I quite enjoy discussing the roots and evolution of torch representation in media and literature (sincerely), and I do think they look cool in more than just a retro way. One can homebrew, and I do. But torches were merely a useful tool in service of a broader point, that their uselessness is a result of (imo) unusual game design that disrupts the representability of many adventure tropes, and this design representative of a broader pattern in the game, which is interesting (imo) to consider, and might be adjusted to the profit of all, torch-lovers, torch-haters, and the torch ambivalent.[ATTACH=full]416649[/ATTACH]Figure 3Yes, haha. (I'd make it a first level spell, as God/Gygax intended. Or at least require Concentration). This is fine, even great. You misunderstand me if you think I'm advocating that everybody, want to or not, must live under the lash of having to carry a torch when at Lvl 1. These are great settings to play in, and concerns about darkness can be handwaved!  No need for darkvision, or announcing that you are pressing the cantrip button. Only on some things!</blockquote>

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