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<blockquote data-quote="Thotas" data-source="post: 2778497" data-attributes="member: 18974">There's that word!&nbsp; Umbran used it.&nbsp; &quot;Elitist&quot;.&nbsp; And, though I proudly consider myself to be an elitist bastard, I have to go with his and many other criticisms of Dremman's POV here.&nbsp; Not only is &quot;maturity&quot; conflated with &quot;narrative description&quot;, but &quot;good&quot; is over identified with what I would call &quot;sophisticated&quot;.&nbsp; And while sophistication is generally a good thing, they aren't the same thing.&nbsp; In Dremman's original post, and in Shaman's defense there of, we find astute references to a developmental process.&nbsp; Take an analogy to reading -- nobody starts with Proust.&nbsp; A good many never get there; some lack the capacity, some have other interests.&nbsp; Most everyone however, encounters Dr. Seuss along the way.&nbsp; And some Proust readers may have fond memories of their first reading of &quot;Green Eggs and Ham&quot;.&nbsp; They'd never call it sophisticated, but they won't let you tell them it's not a good book; and likewise on an adult level, there are books that aren't terribly sophisticated and can be great fun.&nbsp; Likewise, a book call have all the technical hallmarks of sophistication, but lack the ineffable inspiration that makes it good.&nbsp; In the world of RPGs, we find some brilliantly sophisticated people who are just want the catharsis of hacking some ogres to bits on the weekend.&nbsp; We also find some pretentious types who think they're special 'cause no one was called upon to roll to hit in their last gaming session.&nbsp; And there are some who wouldn't play with either group I've just described.As far as the fishing pole analogy goes, Dremman, you've already pointed out half of it's failure.&nbsp; Despite what the poles may have been designed for, they can be used for other things.&nbsp; Using something only-as-designed-for is at best an ettiquette question, and there are some things in the world more important than ettiquette.&nbsp; The other half of the analogy's failure is that I have no indicator that you're right about what RPGs are designed for.&nbsp; I haven't studied in depth, but I've read a few opinions and observations from game designers&nbsp; and I've yet to see one that claims we've all missed the point because we don't describe&nbsp; the sweat on our warrior's arm as he braces to block the hobgoblin's next attack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thotas, post: 2778497, member: 18974"] There's that word! Umbran used it. "Elitist". And, though I proudly consider myself to be an elitist bastard, I have to go with his and many other criticisms of Dremman's POV here. Not only is "maturity" conflated with "narrative description", but "good" is over identified with what I would call "sophisticated". And while sophistication is generally a good thing, they aren't the same thing. In Dremman's original post, and in Shaman's defense there of, we find astute references to a developmental process. Take an analogy to reading -- nobody starts with Proust. A good many never get there; some lack the capacity, some have other interests. Most everyone however, encounters Dr. Seuss along the way. And some Proust readers may have fond memories of their first reading of "Green Eggs and Ham". They'd never call it sophisticated, but they won't let you tell them it's not a good book; and likewise on an adult level, there are books that aren't terribly sophisticated and can be great fun. Likewise, a book call have all the technical hallmarks of sophistication, but lack the ineffable inspiration that makes it good. In the world of RPGs, we find some brilliantly sophisticated people who are just want the catharsis of hacking some ogres to bits on the weekend. We also find some pretentious types who think they're special 'cause no one was called upon to roll to hit in their last gaming session. And there are some who wouldn't play with either group I've just described. As far as the fishing pole analogy goes, Dremman, you've already pointed out half of it's failure. Despite what the poles may have been designed for, they can be used for other things. Using something only-as-designed-for is at best an ettiquette question, and there are some things in the world more important than ettiquette. The other half of the analogy's failure is that I have no indicator that you're right about what RPGs are designed for. I haven't studied in depth, but I've read a few opinions and observations from game designers and I've yet to see one that claims we've all missed the point because we don't describe the sweat on our warrior's arm as he braces to block the hobgoblin's next attack. [/QUOTE]

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