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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vegepygmy" data-source="post: 5561377" data-attributes="member: 40109">I disagree. If you make a DC 20 Sense Motive check, the DM tells you: "Something about this social situation seems wrong to you. You can't put your finger on exactly what it is, but something's not right here." That's a long way from "catching" anyone doing anything. An impostor is using the Disguise skill. To actually catch the impostor is going to require an opposed Spot check. What the "hunch" usage of Sense Motive can do is allow you to make an opposed Spot check, since normally you don't even get to do that (unless the disguised person somehow draws attention to himself). Again, I disagree. First of all, that's probably a -5 penalty on the Sense Motive check (the target wants to believe you). Even if it's not, all you need is to be slightly more charismatic than your wife is wise, somewhat practiced (i.e., skilled) in telling your wife such lies, or lucky and you can win the opposed check just fine. In most situations, you should both be taking 10, so all you need is a +1 on your side that she doesn't have. Even a circumstance bonus from somewhere will net you the win. Kinda seems like it should be, to me. YMMV. But again, someone who is actually good at telling lies won't have much trouble. Here I agree with you. Social skills require a thinking DM in order to work well; you can't just blindly, mechanically apply them and expect the game to go well. Having actually played a character from 1st level who eventually got to a +19 Sense Motive modifier, all I can say is that IMO anyone with a +19 Sense Motive modifier should have an almost magical ability to "read the room" like that. If you have a +19 Hide modifier, you expect to be able to disappear like a ninja. If you have a +19 Balance modifier, you can speed-walk up a greased tightrope. A +19 skill modifier means you can routinely do "heroic" things and at least sometimes do the "nearly impossible." And you're completely overlooking things like circumstance modifiers. The DM is well within his rights to decide that a particular "hunch" check requires more than a DC 20 Sense Motive check, so it's not entirely true that the "opponents" can't do anything about it. Since you're alignment tells people nothing about whether you're trustworthy or untrustworthy per se, Sense Motive can't really "beat" undetectable alignment. But again, this just doesn't seem like a problem to me. Given that 7th-level experts in Sense Motive are about as rare as hen's teeth, I'm okay with the possibility of an occasional "Columbo" type character. (In fact, I'm kinda glad the rules allow for such an archetype.) Bingo! If it's not your cuppa, that's fine. Just be sure you tell your players up front that investing their precious skill points in Sense Motive is probably a poor choice in your campaign.</blockquote>

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