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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1536743" data-attributes="member: 3146">I don't have a problem with that myself. A person who can't get a full sentence out of his mouth without stuttering and who can't think on his feet at all probably shouldn't play a charismatic bard. "Can't we all just um... just...um get along? Diplomacy, DC 45" would not be fun to see on a regular basis. The more serious challenges to the "role-play it out/don't roll dice"  is that it lets players who are charismatic and persuasive but whose characters haven't invested any ranks in bluff, diplomacy, etc to often perform better than players who, while not socially challenged, are not particularly charismatic or persausive but are playing characters with excellent social skills. It also prevents characters from ever reaching legendary heights of excellence. I tend to think of myself as fairly charismatic and persuasive as well as mentally quick on my feet. I did a lot of debate and public speaking in High School and college and did quite well. So, I can do pretty well at the "role-play your character's persuasive speech" game. However, I am under no illusion that I am likely to be mistaken for Demosthenes, Cicero, William Jennings Bryan, Daniel Webster, John Calhoun, et al. If I want to play a paladin who competes with those luminaries as an orator, I am going to have to rely on the dice for a lot of the effect. (Heck, even if I were as good as them, I'd still have to do that. As I understand it, most of them had at least given serious thought to their speeches before they made them--as a player at the gaming table, I generally don't. Similarly, they would take advantage of the surroundings, stand, gesture, shout, etc in ways that are not suited to the gaming table. And finally, there's a different dynamic to speaking to a group of 4-6 gamers than there is speaking to a group of 5,000 Athenians. In a crowd at an event, there are social dynamics that can carry people along in ways that they won't be carried along around a dinner table).On the whole, I think it's important to keep there from being too great a disconnect between the role-playing at the table and the die results. Averagely skilled people should be able to play charismatic persuasive characters. A DM who hears my half-orc barbarian (not that I play one) give the Athenian Funeral Oration should have me roll the dice and then move to rectify the imbalance by saying something like "well, in your mind's ear, that's what it was going to sound like. And the crowd was all going to be moved. Really, what came out was a lot more like 'Tharg sad his friends are dead. You sad too. [Gets embarrased, makes his offering quickly and sits down]'" That's a good deal harder to do when the social misfit is trying to play James Bond so I think it's best to try to avoid that situation.</blockquote>

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