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*Dungeons & Dragons
Separating challenge and complexity in monster design
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<blockquote data-quote="Jer" data-source="post: 7013289" data-attributes="member: 19857"><p>Not really. You can make a monster "more challenging" by doing what ProgBard said - increasing its AC, increasing its hp, increasing its attack bonus, increasing its saves and increasing its DPR. This causes the monster to take more combat rounds to kill and the pain it puts onto the PCs and, if you crank those knobs high enough, increases the probability that one or more of the PCs will get killed. That's all it really takes to make a monster more challenging for the PCs to kill. You can absolutely make a monster "more challenging" without making it any more interesting at all - it likely leads to a boring fight for the DM as it means that the creature stays in the fight long after wearing out the interesting tactics that you can use with it, but it definitely will eat up PC resources - which is what the Challenge Rating basically means.</p><p></p><p>I would take it a step further and suggest that what makes a monster "more challenging" in this respect is anything that lengthens the number of rounds it stays in combat (both increasing AC, saves and hp do this, though so does regeneration, effects that let it blink, etc.) or anything that increases the damage it does to the PCs (both increasing its attack bonus and increasing its damage on a hit do this, but so do things like giving it an area attack or an effect that does ongoing damage). This can come from a straight boost in stats as above, but also from adding powers to the monster.</p><p></p><p>So if you're talking about making a monster "more interesting" by adding fiddly bits to its power list there are different results that can happen. One is that you can make a monster "more interesting" while keeping its challenge at the same level by adding fiddly bits that make it cooler without actually changing how long it stays in combat or how much damage it effectively deals per round. An evil witch who has a firebolt attack and an evil eye attack that are both ranged attacks that do 2d8 damage on a hit - with one being fire damage that does ongoing damage and the other being psychic damage that gives the victim an AC penalty - are going to a) add to the complexity of the creature at the table, b) make it seem more interesting to the players because what the heck is going on there and c) is pretty much the same challenge as an evil witch that only has the firebolt attack as far as the amount of damage its actually laying out. </p><p></p><p>OTOH - you can also make a monster "more interesting" by giving it powers that boost its ability to stay alive for more combat rounds or that increase the average damage its going to lay out over the party per round or both. Give that firebolt spewing witch flight instead of an evil eye and now she's going to avoid more attacks (on average) and so stay in the fight longer and do more total damage. Make that fire attack an area effect instead and now she's dealing out more damage in a single round (spread over more characters of course). Give her a resistance to fire damage and depending on your PCs tactics and capabilities she might live a few extra rounds as the wizard wastes a fireball on her. And so on.</p><p></p><p>They really are as ProgBard points out two different axes at play here. I think that most folks who want "more challenging" creatures are saying that they want things in the quadrant of "more challenging and more interesting" (which is exactly what ProgBard also says above) but it's worth being clear about. If you have a boring CR 3 creature that you want to make more interesting but keep it at CR 3 there are ways to do that that without increasing the challenge that the monster sets out for the PCs.</p><p></p><p>(I also think that the advice in the DMG about CRs is off on this - things like Etherealness absolutely increase the length of time that a monster can avoid damage and re-position itself tactically to do more damage than "normal" and so should increase its challenge. Of course a lot depends on what kind of monster it is - etherealness is going to be more beneficial to a sneaky monster than to a brute - but that just comes back to my thoughts on CR trying to carry too much information in one number).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jer, post: 7013289, member: 19857"] Not really. You can make a monster "more challenging" by doing what ProgBard said - increasing its AC, increasing its hp, increasing its attack bonus, increasing its saves and increasing its DPR. This causes the monster to take more combat rounds to kill and the pain it puts onto the PCs and, if you crank those knobs high enough, increases the probability that one or more of the PCs will get killed. That's all it really takes to make a monster more challenging for the PCs to kill. You can absolutely make a monster "more challenging" without making it any more interesting at all - it likely leads to a boring fight for the DM as it means that the creature stays in the fight long after wearing out the interesting tactics that you can use with it, but it definitely will eat up PC resources - which is what the Challenge Rating basically means. I would take it a step further and suggest that what makes a monster "more challenging" in this respect is anything that lengthens the number of rounds it stays in combat (both increasing AC, saves and hp do this, though so does regeneration, effects that let it blink, etc.) or anything that increases the damage it does to the PCs (both increasing its attack bonus and increasing its damage on a hit do this, but so do things like giving it an area attack or an effect that does ongoing damage). This can come from a straight boost in stats as above, but also from adding powers to the monster. So if you're talking about making a monster "more interesting" by adding fiddly bits to its power list there are different results that can happen. One is that you can make a monster "more interesting" while keeping its challenge at the same level by adding fiddly bits that make it cooler without actually changing how long it stays in combat or how much damage it effectively deals per round. An evil witch who has a firebolt attack and an evil eye attack that are both ranged attacks that do 2d8 damage on a hit - with one being fire damage that does ongoing damage and the other being psychic damage that gives the victim an AC penalty - are going to a) add to the complexity of the creature at the table, b) make it seem more interesting to the players because what the heck is going on there and c) is pretty much the same challenge as an evil witch that only has the firebolt attack as far as the amount of damage its actually laying out. OTOH - you can also make a monster "more interesting" by giving it powers that boost its ability to stay alive for more combat rounds or that increase the average damage its going to lay out over the party per round or both. Give that firebolt spewing witch flight instead of an evil eye and now she's going to avoid more attacks (on average) and so stay in the fight longer and do more total damage. Make that fire attack an area effect instead and now she's dealing out more damage in a single round (spread over more characters of course). Give her a resistance to fire damage and depending on your PCs tactics and capabilities she might live a few extra rounds as the wizard wastes a fireball on her. And so on. They really are as ProgBard points out two different axes at play here. I think that most folks who want "more challenging" creatures are saying that they want things in the quadrant of "more challenging and more interesting" (which is exactly what ProgBard also says above) but it's worth being clear about. If you have a boring CR 3 creature that you want to make more interesting but keep it at CR 3 there are ways to do that that without increasing the challenge that the monster sets out for the PCs. (I also think that the advice in the DMG about CRs is off on this - things like Etherealness absolutely increase the length of time that a monster can avoid damage and re-position itself tactically to do more damage than "normal" and so should increase its challenge. Of course a lot depends on what kind of monster it is - etherealness is going to be more beneficial to a sneaky monster than to a brute - but that just comes back to my thoughts on CR trying to carry too much information in one number). [/QUOTE]
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