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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4157376" data-attributes="member: 40961">Not necessarily true.&nbsp; If I like something, and someone tells me that they've got a new version of it that's like the old one except that now they've improved some stuff, I don't automatically start whinging about how the old one was good enough.&nbsp; I may very well be enthused for a new, improved version of something I liked before.The danger for WOTC is that, frankly, a lot of its critics aren't behaving in good faith.&nbsp; So they take comments like &quot;we've streamlined grappling rules, because they were cludgy in 3e&quot; and respond with things like &quot;But I never had a problem with grappling rules!&nbsp; Are you telling me that I really did but didn't know about it?&nbsp; Are you telling me that I wasn't having fun in 3e?&nbsp; Are you saying that my earlier games sucked?&nbsp; Are you insulting me?&nbsp; You are, aren't you!&nbsp; You are!&quot;The real challenge for WOTC is to create a positive atmosphere in an internet environment where only a few people like that can poison a large swath of internet territory.&nbsp; And yeah, &quot;selling the new stuff&quot; is a part of that.&nbsp; But its just as vulnerable to bad faith defensiveness from critics, because by definition selling the new stuff requires that the stuff be new.&nbsp; And if its &quot;new&quot; and &quot;good&quot; then people will conclude (in bad faith) that you must be saying that the &quot;old&quot; game, which lacked those things, was &quot;bad.&quot;&nbsp; And in fact we've seen exactly that reaction, many times over.&nbsp; I'm sure you remember conversations like &quot;Look at the new, cool, martial maneuvers!&nbsp; You can engage in tactically complex martial combat!&quot; and responses like &quot;So you're saying that 3e martial combat was lame and boring, and that my 3e fighter sucks and isn't fun???&nbsp; I hate you!&quot;From my perspective, the only real failing has been in not clarifying the rules regarding 3rd party publishers.&nbsp; Not because I care about 3rd party publishers (I don't), and not because I think that the presence of 3rd party publishers will have a large effect on the game's sales.&nbsp; Instead, this was a failing because 3rd party publishers are a sacred cow to a small but very vocal group that happens to be highly represented on the internet.&nbsp; Angering this group could have been avoided, which in turn would increase the positivity of the internet community as a whole.Because the general positivity of the internet community is the ONLY way that WOTC can handle issues like some of the debates and fights we've seen on this forum.&nbsp; We have people here who constantly claim that 4e allows you to do things like pick locks with a History check, or that 4e allows players to conjure allies or NPCs from nothing with a skill check, or that 4e doesn't have any method for NPCs to ever heal an injury, ever.&nbsp; These arguments are not advanced with sincerity- you can tell just by reading them and seeing how bizarre they are.&nbsp; Responding rationally won't help, because short of providing the entire ruleset, someone with no sincerity can find a way to exploit a hypothetical hole and screech about it.&nbsp; The only possible response is to encourage an internet community where someone who claims one of these things is laughed at for being a silly, silly person.In the age of marketing through internet forums, troll management is a significant part of it.&nbsp; And that's where WOTC has fallen down.&nbsp; They've created trolls by kicking sacred cows that didn't need kicked, and they've failed to nip some of the trolling in the bud quickly and effectively.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 4157376, member: 40961"] Not necessarily true. If I like something, and someone tells me that they've got a new version of it that's like the old one except that now they've improved some stuff, I don't automatically start whinging about how the old one was good enough. I may very well be enthused for a new, improved version of something I liked before. The danger for WOTC is that, frankly, a lot of its critics aren't behaving in good faith. So they take comments like "we've streamlined grappling rules, because they were cludgy in 3e" and respond with things like "But I never had a problem with grappling rules! Are you telling me that I really did but didn't know about it? Are you telling me that I wasn't having fun in 3e? Are you saying that my earlier games sucked? Are you insulting me? You are, aren't you! You are!" The real challenge for WOTC is to create a positive atmosphere in an internet environment where only a few people like that can poison a large swath of internet territory. And yeah, "selling the new stuff" is a part of that. But its just as vulnerable to bad faith defensiveness from critics, because by definition selling the new stuff requires that the stuff be new. And if its "new" and "good" then people will conclude (in bad faith) that you must be saying that the "old" game, which lacked those things, was "bad." And in fact we've seen exactly that reaction, many times over. I'm sure you remember conversations like "Look at the new, cool, martial maneuvers! You can engage in tactically complex martial combat!" and responses like "So you're saying that 3e martial combat was lame and boring, and that my 3e fighter sucks and isn't fun??? I hate you!" From my perspective, the only real failing has been in not clarifying the rules regarding 3rd party publishers. Not because I care about 3rd party publishers (I don't), and not because I think that the presence of 3rd party publishers will have a large effect on the game's sales. Instead, this was a failing because 3rd party publishers are a sacred cow to a small but very vocal group that happens to be highly represented on the internet. Angering this group could have been avoided, which in turn would increase the positivity of the internet community as a whole. Because the general positivity of the internet community is the ONLY way that WOTC can handle issues like some of the debates and fights we've seen on this forum. We have people here who constantly claim that 4e allows you to do things like pick locks with a History check, or that 4e allows players to conjure allies or NPCs from nothing with a skill check, or that 4e doesn't have any method for NPCs to ever heal an injury, ever. These arguments are not advanced with sincerity- you can tell just by reading them and seeing how bizarre they are. Responding rationally won't help, because short of providing the entire ruleset, someone with no sincerity can find a way to exploit a hypothetical hole and screech about it. The only possible response is to encourage an internet community where someone who claims one of these things is laughed at for being a silly, silly person. In the age of marketing through internet forums, troll management is a significant part of it. And that's where WOTC has fallen down. They've created trolls by kicking sacred cows that didn't need kicked, and they've failed to nip some of the trolling in the bud quickly and effectively. [/QUOTE]

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