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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Yair" data-source="post: 2550565" data-attributes="member: 10913">A LONG post. I warned you.I'm going to answer, and it's going to be long. These are more rambling thoughts than a straight ansewr, so just read the highlights if you want to skim it.Well, while the system is broken it isn't really *that* broken, and it's broken both in the uber-spell and the pathetic-effect direction.Leaving aside mitigating factors, there is simply no way to do a whole lot of damage. Let's assume Spellcraft +210, for example. The best you can do, keeping in mind a +100 saving throw, is Sonic BoltYou emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 35d6 (122 hp) sonic energy damage, half on a successful save (DC 76+Cha=110).DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gpDesign: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x66 for +66 to save DC, +2x25 for +25d6.or if you figure the target will make his saving throw anyways and hope he doesn't have improved evasion:Loud Sonic BoltYou emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 101d6 (353 hp) sonic energy damage, half (176 hp) on a successful save (DC 10+Cha=44).DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gpDesign: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x91 for +91d6.And then there are energy immunities. And SR. And spell reflection...That's not a whole lot of damage, even in the rare case when it does work. Now let's try with the maximum allowed backlash:Sonic BoltYou emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 135d6 (472 hp) sonic energy damage, half on a successful save (DC 76+Cha=110). The caster takes 200d6 (700 hp) in damage.DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gpDesign: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x66 for +66 to save DC, +2x125 for +125d6, -200 for 200d6 backlash.Loud Sonic BoltYou emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 201d6 (703 hp) sonic energy damage, half (351 hp) on a successful save (DC 10+Cha=44). The caster takes 200d6 (700 hp) in damage.DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gpDesign: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x191 for +191d6, -200 for 200d6 baclash.The damage is still not great, and in fact the backlash does more damage to you then the spell probably will do to your enemy. When applied to damaging spells backlash may actually be too weak. It is certainly not broken.Direct damage spells aren't broken as of themselves, buffing and mitigation are the big problems.Brokeness in epic spells arises not from damaging spells, or even attack spells. These can, generally, be resisted by all kinds of means and as they need to be cast on the fly will be relatively weak. It is buffing spells that are the problem.Even non-mitigated buffing spells may have some problems. But the real brokeness comes with mitigating factors.For a spell with a long duration, backlash isn't mitigating anything. Even one feat of Fast Healing will cure the 700 hp damage in but 23 minutes, it's sacrificing nothing at all to include it. I suggest limiting this factor to spells that are meant to be cast in the heat of combat (not before it).Up to 20,000 XP can be burned for an extra -200 mitigating factor. We need 100,000 XP to reach the next level, so losing 20,000 is felt. I'm not sure it's worth +200 to the spellcraft DC, but I'm willing to consider such a mitigating factor in just about any spell. XP are a painful resource to expend.Extending the casting time can net you a -220 mitigating factor, and that's a huge problem. Permanent spells now effectively have +220 to their DC, eating up 44 of the spell's positive modifiers (before the x5 due to permanent duration kicks in). Day-long spells can likewise be cast in 10 minutes, netting +20 (or is it +19?! the examples and table-text don't match) to the possible DC. None of this comes at any real cost.I suggest making the increased casting time mitigating factor available only to spells without lasting effects. You can use it to Contact a god, Forsee the future, or Transport a city to another plane - but not to Armor your buddies, or Animate a creature to fight for you, or so on. (Evil spells should be able to circumvent this limit; I won't stop anyone from conjuring Cthulhu - my PC will. Spells with a huge area of effect, such as weather spells, may also be acceptable.)Changing to Personal target is just a measly -2 mitigating factor, this won't break anything.Decreased damage dice drops -5 per die type, I likewise thing it won't break anything.The true offenders are Rituals. What's so wrong about them is that they are not capped, you could brandish a -3000 mitigating factor with ease (e.g. above). Furthermore, it again bears no real cost for spells with a long duration as you cast it at your home base with the aid of your acolytes/apprentices/minions so it isn't a problem.I suggest limiting this factor to -200 for starters, in-line with the other mitigating factors.In addition, it should be limited to spells with no lasting effects.Of course, all these guidelines need to be taken with a grain of salt. I see no problem with a long ritual of Enslavement, for example - it's just fitting. A long ritual for buffing your AC or summong Nilberung, however, is a no-no.So what does this net us? Let's reuse the two spells: we can only add -200 for burning 20,000 XP, adding yet more +100d6. That will raise the damage to 235d6 (822/411 hp) or 301d6 (1053/526 hp). STILL not broken, at the cost of 1/5 of your next level!We see that combat spells can enjoy xp and backlash mitigating factors, for up to a -400 modifier.A long-duration buffing spell will be able to mitigate its DC with XP and personal range, for a -202 mitigating factor. PERHPAS you can squize in a Ritual factor for minute-duration spells, as it's your team-mates that will need to participate and expand spell slots; so the mitigation is rather similar to the attack spell, -402 at most. Truly powerful spells would only be appropriate ones. For example, Enslavement (turning a helpless target within touch range to your thrall) may have casting time, ritual, and xp, for a total of a -620 mitigating factor.If used when appropriate, and not just when desired, the mitigating factors can kept to standardized amounts.Now the problem becomes: what can you do with this +400 or +200 you've got? Does it make the effect broken?This very much depends on the seed and spell, of course.Attack spells can benefit from up to a -400 factor, but a -200 (backlash) is more likely except for desperate spells. Converting it all to a saving throw results in save DC=110+Cha=144; the conclusion is that a large part MUST be devoted to increasing the DC if the spell is to be effective. This will significantly lower the power of attack spells that are not DC-based anyways.Compare this with the Summon seed, for example. Summoning spells have an advantage in that they don't need to increase the save DC. I can see a quick Summon spell with ritual and xp mitigating factors, for a -400. My example caster can whip up a CR ~300 creature with such a spell, now THAT is broken. Generally speaking, a lot of seeds CAN be used to devastating effect even under my stricter allowance of mitigating factors. Afflict can produce a -300 penalty or so, Armor can grant about +300 to AC, Slay can drain 380 negative levels (but mind the DC and immunities!), Dispel can rise up to 1d20+600 or so (against 11+caster level), Ward can block all spells at +400 or so to caster level (much worse than the possible Dispel!), Transport can teleport about 16,000 pounds, Transform can polymporph other to about 300 HD, Summon can conjure a CR ~300 creature, Reflect epic spells at +200 to resist dispel (very poor) or about 150 melee or ranged attacks, Life can raise someone dead for almost 6,000 years, Heal can restore lost levels within about 6 years, Fortify can almost reach a +300 enhancement bonus to an ability score/saving throw/save resistance/natural armor, Forsee about 17 hours into the future, Energy damage of about 300d6 (1050 hp before saves, SR, and immunities).With mitigating factors, many epic spell seeds can produce overly-powerful effects for the caster's CRBut how are things without mitigating factors? With just +210 to play with, we have...Afflict can produce a -100 penalty, Animate Dead about 200 HD of undead, Armor provides about +100 armor bonus, Banish about 340 HD of outsiders, Destroy deals about 100d6 (350 hp) of damage (with low save for half), Dispel at 1d20+180 or so, Energy to deal ~100d6 (350 hp, with low save for half), Forsee 6 hours into the future, Fortify for about +100 bonus, Heal to restore drained levels within the last 2 years, Life to raise those dead for about 2000 years, Reflect epic spells at caster level, Slay to grant about 100 negative levels (with weak save for half), Summon a creature of CR 90 or so, Transform to a creature of about 100 HD, Transport about 5500 pounds, Ward with +88 to resist dispelling.Without mitigation, most epic capabilities are reasonable or weak, although some (mainly buffs) are still overly powerful.The conclusion from all this long discussion is hence simple, and could have been made in advance: epic spells should be constructed to fit with the PC's power level, not to exploit mitigating factors. If mitigating factors are used sparingly, only to augment effects that are overly weak (such as the Energy or Destroy seeds), then most spells will not be broken. The remaining problematic spells should be handled with care; I truly don't know how to set limits for buffing.Mitigation should usually NOT be used. Its use should be limited to buffing otherwise weak spells. A few effects should not be pursued to their full potential, and should be reigned in by reason (e.g. Armor, Fortify).A recurring problem is epic dispelling and the problems it poses. I think it can be resolved as follows:The Ward seed is interperted as requiring a simple, unmodified, caster level check when opposed by the Dispel seed. This cannot be modified by any factor. A sufficiently enhanced greater dispel magic may also be able to overcome the ward, in this case the opponent's dispel check is limited by the (non-epic) spell.The Dispel is interperted as adding +1 to the dispel limit per +1 to the DC for all spells except Ward epic spells.With these interpertations, and the understanding that mitigating factors should NOT generally be used with most seeds, I think the epic spell system can work reasonably well. Its main difficulty is in setting a reasonable limit on buffing. No house rules required, just a sense for balance.It can certainly be made better with some hourse rules. Energy and Destroy need to be significantly stronger, for example. Fortify and Armor probably need to be weaker. And so on. But we need not give in to house rules, nor discard it as unusable. We can play by the book - and for the most part, I think it will work just fine.</blockquote>

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