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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Salamandyr" data-source="post: 6202702" data-attributes="member: 40233">Absolutely correct, except for your misapprehension that my use of the word polish was somehow pejorative.What you're talking about in the first paragraph is exactly the kind of stuff I wish they'd taken the time to do in 3e, but they went with "looks good.  ship it!" (or at least I imagine; I understand they playtested levels 1 through 10 pretty extensively).   ADDENDUM:  4e had the opposite problem of 3e.  They did a lot of work with the numbers, but those numbers didn't generate results matching player expectations.But it's clear to me that deciding that "fights should last 5 rounds on average, and fighters should succeed at hitting their opponents 70% of the time" are goals one decides on early in the design process, but then, at the end, you have to go through the rules, and figure out that "Yes, fights are lasting about 5 rounds and, oh no! fighers are hitting only 45% of the time!  We need to adjust their attack bonus to make them hit more! But now the fights only last 3 rounds.  Perhaps we should look at hit points again!".All of this is incredibly important stuff.  But it's not stuff you can look at until you've figured out the basic structure of the game.    Which is what the public playtest was about.  Do we want expertise dice or a proficiency bonus?  Should mages be competent with martial weapons?  Should dragons be a challenging fight for a whole party, or should a single rogue be able to take an equal level dragon on?  How often should a fighter succeed at hitting?That's the stuff they needed us to answer.  And we did; but now comes sausage making-the math polishing.  We've told them we like proficiency bonuses more than expertise dice.  So how large should that proficiency bonus be?  They don't need us for that part.  In fact, we'd only get in the way...the same way a chef in the kitchen needs to know we want steak rather than sea food, but doesn't need us telling him how to cook it.The frustrating thing is the idea that the math should work absolutely correct right out the door "Waddaya mean my rogue can beat up a dragon!  I told you I want rogues and dragons!  Can't you do anything right?"</blockquote>

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