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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Seriously contemplating an attempt at a retro AD&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9462275" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>I think you've got some of the history a bit off here, or maybe you're just expressing it in a way I'm not understanding.</p><p></p><p></p><p>D&D was published as "rules for fantastic medieval wargames campaigns". The label of "role playing game" wasn't invented and settled on in the market for at least a couple of years afterward (see extensive discussion in Peterson's <em>The Elusive Shift</em>). It was not pitched as an improv story making game (though some people started to see that potential early) and it didn't present points as something to be laughed at. Experience points and the level advancement system were two of the game's killer initial concepts, creating the "hook" for players to want to come back again and again, as you get to shortly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>AD&D is quite extensive, but super-detailed wargames did already exist. Squad Leader was published in '77. The Campaign for North Africa came out in '79, the same year that the AD&D DMG did.</p><p></p><p>Korns' Modern Warfare in Miniature (1966), from which we know Dave Wesely and the Twin Cities wargamers got a lot of the ideas about single-character play which evolved into Braunstein and thence into Blackmoor and D&D is only 83 pages, compared to ~110 for OD&D's LBBs, but I would definitely say the rules in it are more complex, though more limited in scope. I'm taking a quick look at the rules for soldiers' stamina and the algebraic calculations described for determining their performance reductions based on time walking, marching, or crawling (p36-37), or based on how long they've been without rest, food, or water (all separate calculations & formulae, p37).</p><p></p><p>Other RPGs of greater complexity and attempted realism also came out prior to and contemporaneous with AD&D. Chivalry & Sorcery, for example, was first published in 1977. FGU was among multiple publishers whose offerings in the nascent RPG market were more complex than D&D or AD&D, and Gary commented on their existence indirectly at the start of the DMG.</p><p></p><p>From page 9:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Err; sort of. Just calling them a playing piece, what some folks refer to as "pawn stance", was definitely not the rule or only way it was played, even in the 70s or even just at Gary's table.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Demonstrably incorrect. The 1979 DMG contains not just references to playing "in character", but has mechanical ramifications for doing so or failing to do so in several places. Especially as regards alignment. Look at the rules section titled "Graphing Alignment" on page 24 of the DMG, and the mechanical consequences for changing alignment detailed on page 25. The rules for Gaining Experience Levels on page 86 are also quite explicit in requiring that characters be played in character, both as reflects their class and alignment. Failure to do so results in stiff penalties making it much harder and more expensive to advance in level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a combination of rating "skilled play" as well as adherence to role and personality, but the latter parts are very clearly emphasized as important.</p><p></p><p>I'll agree with you that Gary's writing in the 1970s doesn't go into narrative theory or storytelling (though those started to be part of mainstream TSR D&D in the 1980s, particularly after what we refer to as the Hickman Revolution), but the importance of the character and drama were explicitly core to the game as Gary described it in AD&D.</p><p></p><p>From Saving Throws, page 80:</p><p></p><p></p><p>(emphases mine)</p><p></p><p></p><p>These sound like some localized assumptions. Gary made some public comments in Dragon and editorial asides in the DMG trumpeting the virtues of balance and OFFICIAL ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products, and casting shade on (implied to be inferior) third party stuff by other companies trying to profit off "his" ideas, but the idea that you couldn't improvise anything or introduce new monsters or spells without prior testing definitely isn't in the books nor was it implied. Quite the opposite. It was expected that part of the job and fun of the DM was coming up with such new stuff to spring on their players as surprises.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Beat the game" reminds me of the stories of what Dave Arneson did with Dave Wesely's Braunsteins, especially Braunstein 2, the Banania game.</p><p></p><p>Definitely part of Gary's and some other games was the adversarial, "Gygaxian Skilled Play" outwit-the-ref's-surprises style of game. Whence we get all sorts of weird trap monsters like earseekers ('ope; listened at the wrong door!) rot grubs (searched the wrong corpse!), Mimics (ha! you thought that was a treasure chest!), Lurkers Above (forgot to check the ceiling!), Trappers (whoops! Floor too!).</p><p></p><p>Hidden information and avoiding deadly surprises was certainly a big part of Gary's game, which is still a common thread with Korns. Though I remember in the 80s folks already complaining about these kinds of monsters as "gotcha" nonsense and not the sort of thing they wanted in their RPGs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Vampire: The Masquerade kicked off The Storyteller System in 1991 and was all about the latter stuff. It won the Origins Award for best game the following year.</p><p></p><p>Off the top of my head I also thought of 1987's <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whimsy_Cards" target="_blank">Whimsy Cards</a>, a generic supplement from Lion Rampant, the precursor company to White Wolf, which were a way for players to introduce plot complications and narrative twists into an RPG mid-session.</p><p></p><p>But as early as the 1970s some folks were definitely arguing that the best way to play RPGs was immersion in the character, or to craft narratives and stories. As is documented in the zines, APAs, and other published discussions in the fan community which <em>The Elusive Shift</em> talks about in detail.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9462275, member: 7026594"] I think you've got some of the history a bit off here, or maybe you're just expressing it in a way I'm not understanding. D&D was published as "rules for fantastic medieval wargames campaigns". The label of "role playing game" wasn't invented and settled on in the market for at least a couple of years afterward (see extensive discussion in Peterson's [I]The Elusive Shift[/I]). It was not pitched as an improv story making game (though some people started to see that potential early) and it didn't present points as something to be laughed at. Experience points and the level advancement system were two of the game's killer initial concepts, creating the "hook" for players to want to come back again and again, as you get to shortly. AD&D is quite extensive, but super-detailed wargames did already exist. Squad Leader was published in '77. The Campaign for North Africa came out in '79, the same year that the AD&D DMG did. Korns' Modern Warfare in Miniature (1966), from which we know Dave Wesely and the Twin Cities wargamers got a lot of the ideas about single-character play which evolved into Braunstein and thence into Blackmoor and D&D is only 83 pages, compared to ~110 for OD&D's LBBs, but I would definitely say the rules in it are more complex, though more limited in scope. I'm taking a quick look at the rules for soldiers' stamina and the algebraic calculations described for determining their performance reductions based on time walking, marching, or crawling (p36-37), or based on how long they've been without rest, food, or water (all separate calculations & formulae, p37). Other RPGs of greater complexity and attempted realism also came out prior to and contemporaneous with AD&D. Chivalry & Sorcery, for example, was first published in 1977. FGU was among multiple publishers whose offerings in the nascent RPG market were more complex than D&D or AD&D, and Gary commented on their existence indirectly at the start of the DMG. From page 9: Err; sort of. Just calling them a playing piece, what some folks refer to as "pawn stance", was definitely not the rule or only way it was played, even in the 70s or even just at Gary's table. Demonstrably incorrect. The 1979 DMG contains not just references to playing "in character", but has mechanical ramifications for doing so or failing to do so in several places. Especially as regards alignment. Look at the rules section titled "Graphing Alignment" on page 24 of the DMG, and the mechanical consequences for changing alignment detailed on page 25. The rules for Gaining Experience Levels on page 86 are also quite explicit in requiring that characters be played in character, both as reflects their class and alignment. Failure to do so results in stiff penalties making it much harder and more expensive to advance in level. There's a combination of rating "skilled play" as well as adherence to role and personality, but the latter parts are very clearly emphasized as important. I'll agree with you that Gary's writing in the 1970s doesn't go into narrative theory or storytelling (though those started to be part of mainstream TSR D&D in the 1980s, particularly after what we refer to as the Hickman Revolution), but the importance of the character and drama were explicitly core to the game as Gary described it in AD&D. From Saving Throws, page 80: (emphases mine) These sound like some localized assumptions. Gary made some public comments in Dragon and editorial asides in the DMG trumpeting the virtues of balance and OFFICIAL ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products, and casting shade on (implied to be inferior) third party stuff by other companies trying to profit off "his" ideas, but the idea that you couldn't improvise anything or introduce new monsters or spells without prior testing definitely isn't in the books nor was it implied. Quite the opposite. It was expected that part of the job and fun of the DM was coming up with such new stuff to spring on their players as surprises. "Beat the game" reminds me of the stories of what Dave Arneson did with Dave Wesely's Braunsteins, especially Braunstein 2, the Banania game. Definitely part of Gary's and some other games was the adversarial, "Gygaxian Skilled Play" outwit-the-ref's-surprises style of game. Whence we get all sorts of weird trap monsters like earseekers ('ope; listened at the wrong door!) rot grubs (searched the wrong corpse!), Mimics (ha! you thought that was a treasure chest!), Lurkers Above (forgot to check the ceiling!), Trappers (whoops! Floor too!). Hidden information and avoiding deadly surprises was certainly a big part of Gary's game, which is still a common thread with Korns. Though I remember in the 80s folks already complaining about these kinds of monsters as "gotcha" nonsense and not the sort of thing they wanted in their RPGs. Vampire: The Masquerade kicked off The Storyteller System in 1991 and was all about the latter stuff. It won the Origins Award for best game the following year. Off the top of my head I also thought of 1987's [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whimsy_Cards']Whimsy Cards[/URL], a generic supplement from Lion Rampant, the precursor company to White Wolf, which were a way for players to introduce plot complications and narrative twists into an RPG mid-session. But as early as the 1970s some folks were definitely arguing that the best way to play RPGs was immersion in the character, or to craft narratives and stories. As is documented in the zines, APAs, and other published discussions in the fan community which [I]The Elusive Shift[/I] talks about in detail. [/QUOTE]
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