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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skywalker" data-source="post: 61032" data-attributes="member: 1538">Nor as little as you make it out to be.  I have really problem understanding how you can say Cthulhu and D&D are similar "middle ground" class based systems except in the broadest of terms.  In Cthulhu you pick your own career, you pick your own skills that fit with that career and your advancement is based on skill usage.  In D&D you pick a predetermined class and fit your concept to it.  In Cthulhu you learn skills that you use, whether or not they are career related.  This is not class related.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> You can never take into account abusers of systems.  Even so the Cthuhu system is designed for any combination of skills and so choosing skills in CoC has a lot less impact than tinkering with the classes in D&D.  I agree that it is possible to take advantage of this (as any game) but this is going a little off topic.   Actually it does.  Whether or not they are out of balance is not important.  What is important is that the changes generated much discussion.  This would not happen if someone wanted to modify the Priest Career Skills in Cthulhu.  Again because Cthulhu is designed to be modified in such a way. Its not metagaming.  Its a complaint that the rules fail to give effect to player concept.  Despite your insistence that tinkering is easy in D&D the need to tinker to fit your concept is the real issue.  Its not as easy as you suggest and I think looking at the amount of discussion D&D generates regarding to rules modifications is an example of this issue.  Though I agree that the GM should hold ultimate balancing power I don't agree with your judgment of players.  I understand that there are some players out there who see RPGing as a competition rather than roleplaying out interesting concepts.  Again this is going a little off topic so I'll reserve any further comment.  However I will just say that with a classless system the need for tinkering is reduced and that this issue does not even arise. I think there is a little misunderstanding here.  As I have said I like classes as a game play tool.  They are extremely useful and many games have them that assist concepts and flexibility.  However despite my love of the game I find that D&D is often restrictive, arbitrary and contrived for the sake of game play.  Psion you seem to consider that all systems with any form of "class" is a class based system.  I think that is a bit simplistic given the spectrum of games out there.As for classless systems I think UA is an excellent game and about as full a cup as you can get.However I prefer the level of class found in Tribe 8, Cthuhlu, WW, Blue Planet and the like.  I find they assist in concept but are not restrictive.</blockquote>

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