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<blockquote data-quote="Zerovoid" data-source="post: 61793" data-attributes="member: 283">I keep seeing a bunch of things pop up in this discussion.&nbsp; The first is the noble wizard, who wants diplomacy and sence motive and a bunch of other socail skills as class skills.&nbsp; The reason they don't have this is game balance.&nbsp; In my opinion, these are some of the best skills in the game.&nbsp; The only things that as good as the social skills in utility are the sneaking skills( hide and move silently), the perception skills( listen, spot), and tumble.&nbsp; Diplomacy and sense motive will get you around so many situations its not even funny.&nbsp; They are much better than skills like knowledge( arcana) and jump.If you wanted these skills for your wizard in my game, I would tell you to take the cosmopolitan feat, or multiclass with aristocrat, rogue, bard, or expert.&nbsp; Yes, this is a high price to pay for these very valuable skills, but its probably worth it.&nbsp; A balanced non-class system that still used these skills the same way as DnD would probably require that your mage make equivalent trade offs to get these skills.Another thing people complain about is that everyone, even wizards or experts, gets more BAB, HP, and base saves.&nbsp; Well, for a system like DnD, it has to be this way.&nbsp; Extreme vertical scaling of abilities is probably the most basic design assumption of DnD.&nbsp; I don't really like it, but its there.&nbsp; When a 10th level monster can&nbsp; your wizard for 10 times as much as a 1st level monster, he has to have more hitpoints to comphensate for this fact.&nbsp; Same with BAB and saves.&nbsp; This is the same reason that you can't start a completely new character when your character dies.&nbsp; A 1st level character just can't cut it in a 10th level group, because that is the way it was designed.&nbsp; To have an appropriate level of playability, characters must get better at everything.&nbsp; If the current DnD were skill based, it would become very unbalanced.&nbsp; Fighters would spend all their points on BAB, and ignore things like their Will saves.&nbsp; Wizards wouldn't spend any points on BAB.&nbsp; The result would be a party full of much more extreme specialists than DnD already has.Personally, I think it would have been really cool if DnD had been designed to scale horizontally like Gurps or the White Wolf games.&nbsp; If your character couldn't become immune to arrow shots and other mortal wounds as you leveled up.&nbsp; I think a complete redesign of the game along skill based lines could probably be done and retain the DnD feel.&nbsp; For me, DnD isn't about levels, its about a world populated with the DnD archetypes, and full of elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings.&nbsp; It might also be about Magic Missile, but mechanically, that would be a very different one than the one we play now.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zerovoid, post: 61793, member: 283"] I keep seeing a bunch of things pop up in this discussion. The first is the noble wizard, who wants diplomacy and sence motive and a bunch of other socail skills as class skills. The reason they don't have this is game balance. In my opinion, these are some of the best skills in the game. The only things that as good as the social skills in utility are the sneaking skills( hide and move silently), the perception skills( listen, spot), and tumble. Diplomacy and sense motive will get you around so many situations its not even funny. They are much better than skills like knowledge( arcana) and jump. If you wanted these skills for your wizard in my game, I would tell you to take the cosmopolitan feat, or multiclass with aristocrat, rogue, bard, or expert. Yes, this is a high price to pay for these very valuable skills, but its probably worth it. A balanced non-class system that still used these skills the same way as DnD would probably require that your mage make equivalent trade offs to get these skills. Another thing people complain about is that everyone, even wizards or experts, gets more BAB, HP, and base saves. Well, for a system like DnD, it has to be this way. Extreme vertical scaling of abilities is probably the most basic design assumption of DnD. I don't really like it, but its there. When a 10th level monster can your wizard for 10 times as much as a 1st level monster, he has to have more hitpoints to comphensate for this fact. Same with BAB and saves. This is the same reason that you can't start a completely new character when your character dies. A 1st level character just can't cut it in a 10th level group, because that is the way it was designed. To have an appropriate level of playability, characters must get better at everything. If the current DnD were skill based, it would become very unbalanced. Fighters would spend all their points on BAB, and ignore things like their Will saves. Wizards wouldn't spend any points on BAB. The result would be a party full of much more extreme specialists than DnD already has. Personally, I think it would have been really cool if DnD had been designed to scale horizontally like Gurps or the White Wolf games. If your character couldn't become immune to arrow shots and other mortal wounds as you leveled up. I think a complete redesign of the game along skill based lines could probably be done and retain the DnD feel. For me, DnD isn't about levels, its about a world populated with the DnD archetypes, and full of elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. It might also be about Magic Missile, but mechanically, that would be a very different one than the one we play now. [/QUOTE]

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